British Court Finds Muslim Father Guilty of Murdering Daughter

[Apeman81]

Love your wife as Christ loved the church. Give yourself up for your wife. [Ephesians 5:25]

Love your wife in the same way you love your body and yourself. [Ephesians 5:28-33]

Be considerate as you live with your wife. [I Peter 3:7]

Do not be harsh with your wife. [Colossians 3:19]

Your body belongs to your wife. [I Corinthians 7:3-5]

Rejoice in your wife. Let her breasts satisfy you. Be captivated with her. [Proverbs 5:18-19

Tell your wife how captivated you are with her body [Song of Solomon, esp 4:7; 7:1-8]

Praise your wife. [Proverbs 31:28-29]

Be thankful for your wife and realize the favor you have received from God. [Prov 18:22]

Honor your marriage; keep it pure by remaining true to your wife in every way [Heb 13:4]

Be "one flesh" with your wife in every way. [Matthew 19:5]

Gee! Still nothing about beating or stoning.

We can play this game all day. Which, since you will not answer the point of the post, which is why are such travesties visited upon women in the Name of Islam not universally decried, especially by adherents to Islam, is why you choose to attempt to compare the words of one religion to another. Since you admit you do not adhere to any religion, perhaps you might refrain from trying to speak to the meaning of either.

So, that leaves us with the real question. Why are such crimes committed in the name of Islam, misguided or not, not decried universally?

It is not a very hard question.

[Mr.Vicchio]

Ibn_Sina

Go google "Honor Killings" for me would ya. Go look at all the publicly available info.

Then come back and explain how my "facts" are wrong.

They aren'. Do you work for CAIR?

[The Decider]

Quote by: Mr.Vicchio I am not islamaphobic. I am sick of RADICAL ISLAM and sick of the people that make excuses for it.

I called this murder a "crime" in my first post. The criminal has been sentenced. I have not heard or seen any upswell of Muslim anger or objection at this sentence. Perhaps you have. Please share.

Quote by: Mr.Vicchio Well, we know two people here who care more about not offending the "Muslims" then they do about challenging REAL evil in this world.

The crime has been challenged, ajudicated, and sentenced. The evildoer will go to prison. That makes me happy, and you've shown precious little evidence that Britian's muslims don't share my happiness.

Quote by: Mr.Vicchio I don't care if you are a Muslim, a hindu, a Christian, an atheist, a devil worshiper or whatever floats your boat.

What a bald faced LIE, Mr. Vicchio! You said the following: "Religion of Peace my ass. Yes, what this young woman did was nothing more then any westerner can do, leave a crappy marriage, and find real love.

But no[t] in Islam!"

I see so mention of Hindu or Sikh honor killings. You generalized this story to the ENTIRE Islamic religion. You didn't say "radical Muslims" only. That is classic Islamophobia. ISLAMOPHOBIA!

Quote by: Mr.Vicchio And those that believe in the basic same "religion" you do don't come out and stomp on people that do that. I have a problem with that. And there is NOTHING WRONG WITH my stance.

Mr. Vicchio, the criminal was arrested, tried, convicted, and sentenced. You have shown ZERO evidence that British Muslims disagree. Zero. You have also not applied your collective responsibility argument to Sikhs and Hindus, two communities that also suffer from honor killings. Nor have you considered the well known prevalence of domestic violence in Latin American cultures, where "machismo" and extreme Catholicism have not benefited womens' rights. Why not? Islamophobia.

Quote by: Mr.Vicchio Oh and I love the moral equivalencing there "Decider". Do Christians support Honor Killings? Dot hey just shrug their shoulders and move on....

Do you have a major reading problem, Mr. Vicchio? I never mentioned Christians. That would be the BBC. I confined my comments to Sikhs and Hindus. However, as stated above, if we look hard enough at traditional Christian societies in Latin America and even Italy and parts of eastern Europe, I'll wager that we'll find widespread tolerance of domestic violence against women in the name of Christianity--and a complacent public. The problem is not with entire religions--it's a consequence of undereducated, tribal cultures.

Quote by: Mr.Vicchio You both make me SICK.....You appeasers, you cowards, you politically correct spineless fiends

This may be a good time to step back, breathe deeply, and take your meds. :)

[The Decider]

Quote by: Apeman81 We hear the same drivel time and again "it's not condoned by the religion" What we don't hear is the adherents of that religion publicly decrying the practice. Not is a single, loud voice.

British Muslim leaders HAVE CONDEMNED honor killings! You and Mr. Vicchio simply don't know what you are talking about. Total ignorance.

"Kurdistan Refugees Women's Organisation co-ordinator Sawsan Salim said most Kurds also condemned "honour killings".

"Inayat Bunglawala of the Muslim Council of Britain (MCB) told BBC News Online that the case was not symptomatic of a widespread problem in the Muslim community."

" Ram Gidoomal, of the South Asian Development Partnership charity...urged 'mosques, Hindu temples, Gurdwaras [temples], and indeed Asian Christian churches" to teach their congregations that "this sort of behaviour is absolutely unacceptable...the taking of life is a serious matter, and goes against any religious teaching.'"

BBC NEWS | UK | England | London | UK Muslims condemn honour killings

[tinybear]

Despite these condemnations by a handful of Muslim leaders, it seems that honor killings show no signs of being eradicated. I wonder why that is? Can anyone enlighten me?

[The Decider]

Quote by: Mr.Vicchio Most practitioners of Honor Killings are... Muslim! Despite their religion "forbading it".

If you think Islam allows for honor killings, post the relevent passage about a husband's or family's right to kill their wife or daughter? Post that passage, Mr. Vicchio, or retract your ridiculous and Islamophobic claim.

[The Decider]

Quote by: tinybear Despite these condemnations by a handful of Muslim leaders, it seems that honor killings show no signs of being eradicated. I wonder why that is? Can anyone enlighten me?

Lack of education. Tribal tradition. Custom. These roadblocks to womens' rights are hard to overcome in a fortnight.

[tinybear]

Quote by: The Decider Lack of education. Tribal tradition. Custom. These roadblocks to womens' rights are hard to overcome in a fortnight.

A few hundred years ago, Christians were just as bad (if not even worse). But they moved on and became civilzed. Muslims remained where they were. Why is that?

[Apeman81]

Quote by: The Decider If you think Islam allows for honor killings, post the relevent passage about a husband's or family's right to kill their wife or daughter? Post that passage, Mr. Vicchio, or retract your ridiculous and Islamophobic claim.

The point is not whether or not WE think Islam allows honor killings, rather it is only important what ISLAMIC ADHERENTS think the Koran supports.

Now we've shown some passages that are quite clear that the male is superior and controlling of the female. They show that the male may visit physical harm upon the female to make her toe the line.

We've demonstrated, using the words of ISLAMIC ADHERENTS, that the idea of a women being chattel to the male has lead some to believe that in certain cases, where the male decides that the female has acted in a manner surpassing his ability to forgive, the male has chosen death as the method of corrective action for the woman.

This behavior is not being universally decried. It is allowed, if not approved of in some Muslim nations. It is only generating real opposition in Western Nations where it is now occurring as the second Muslim expansion takes place.

You may count me among those that oppose this barbaric behavior. You’ll have to forgive me if I’m not “culturally sensitive” enough not to say so.

[Matt W]

Several reasons. However, it's fair to note that Islam (or at least, the regions now dominated by it) was much more civilised than the Western world until relatively recently. Certainly, up until the 17th century, I would classify the Islamic nations as far less barbarous as those of the West.

However, the Industrial Revolution took hold with suprising speed in Europe (and later, the US) - and those nations who have gained the most from it have used it through the centuries to keep the rest of the world in their shadow. This has fostered and nutured a significant paranoia about anything Western, be it ideals or technology, amongst the leaders of Islam in the Middle East - and they often have more to gain by keeping their populace mostly ignorant and fearful of the bugbear that is 'The Great Satan' than by educating them.

Not a lot of forward thinking in evidence, sadly. By either side.

[The Decider]

Quote by: tinybear A few hundred years ago, Christians were just as bad (if not even worse).

Has domestic violence against women, even murders, ended in traditionally Catholic nations?

Quote by: tinybear But they moved on and became civilzed. Muslims remained where they were. Why is that?

Again, you're generalizing "Muslims." Have you ever been to Malaysia or Indonesia? Turkey? You'll find feminists and Western ads and jeans and rock music and, in the cases of Malaysia and Turkey, vibrant capitalist economies. Muslims come in many shapes and sizes and ideologies. And most never would dream of killing their women.

[tinybear]

Here's an interesting website: International Campaign Against Honour Killings › News › Sharia law criticised in NWFP

[The Decider]

Quote by: Apeman81 The point is not whether or not WE think Islam allows honor killings, rather it is only important what ISLAMIC ADHERENTS think the Koran supports.

What mainstream Muslim scholars support honor killings with the Koran? Ditto of Sihk and Hindu scholars and their holy texts? We can always find people who justify crimes with their religion; that doesn't mean the religion supports those crimes.

Quote by: Apeman81 Now we've shown some passages that are quite clear that the male is superior and controlling of the female. They show that the male may visit physical harm upon the female to make her toe the line.

And others on this thread have shown similar passages in Christian and Jewish texts. So? None of these passages use the words "honor killing."

Quote by: Apeman81 We've demonstrated, using the words of ISLAMIC ADHERENTS, that the idea of a women being chattel to the male has lead some to believe that in certain cases, where the male decides that the female has acted in a manner surpassing his ability to forgive, the male has chosen death as the method of corrective action for the woman.

Again, murderers calling themselves Muslims do not make up the entire religion. Jim Jones called himself a Christian after all.

Quote by: Apeman81 This behavior is not being universally decried. It is allowed, if not approved of in some Muslim nations. It is only generating real opposition in Western Nations where it is now occurring as the second Muslim expansion takes place.

British Muslim leaders have condemned this honor killing. 'Nuff said.

Quote by: Apeman81 You may count me among those that oppose this barbaric behavior. You’ll have to forgive me if I’m not “culturally sensitive” enough not to say so.

I have called this a "crime" and "murder." If that is evidence of SUPPORTING honor killings and honor killers, then you and I are using two seperate versions of the English language.

[tinybear]

Quote by: The Decider Has domestic violence against women, even murders, ended in traditionally Catholic nations? Again, you're generalizing "Muslims." Have you ever been to Malaysia or Indonesia? Turkey? You'll find feminists and Western ads and jeans and rock music and, in the cases of Malaysia and Turkey, vibrant capitalist economies. Muslims come in many shapes and sizes and ideologies. And most never would dream of killing their women.

Since you mentioned it, yes, I have lived in Malaysia when I was a child and have visited Indonesia on a number of occasions. The things which struck me were these: corruption was a way of life in these two countries and there was blatant racial and religious discrimination. That was quite a while ago, but I have reason to believe things have not changed much since then. If anything I think they've gotten worse.

Growing intolerance? Freedom of religious belief at risk in Malaysia - The Wire - September 2005 - Amnesty International

The Danger of Fundamentalism: Indonesia - Indonesian News - Bogo, Daily, Fundamentalism - Planet Mole

[The Decider]

Quote by: tinybear Since you mentioned it, yes, I have lived in Malaysia when I was a child and have visited Indonesia on a number of occasions. The things which struck me were these: corruption was a way of life in these two countries and there was blatant racial and religious discrimination.

Corruption and racial discrimination in Asia???!!!! Say it 'ain't so! Tinybear, few places in Asia have cured corruption and discrimination. Ever been to China? Mongolia? The Philippines?

Islam is not the problem in Malaysia or Indonesia. That would be high debt, substandard education, and poverty (more so in Indonesia than Malaysia). Of course, there are radical Muslims in those nations, but they have no popular standing.

[tinybear]

Ever been to Hong Kong or Singapore? :)

But what's your point? The fact that there's corruption in most Asian countries doesn't detract from the fact that Malaysia and Indonesia practise blatant racial & religious discrimination policies.

[rez]

Quote by: Apeman81 The point is not whether or not WE think Islam allows honor killings, rather it is only important what ISLAMIC ADHERENTS think the Koran supports.

haha. So then what are we going to do about the Christians who read the Bible literally? You are ok with those fundalmentalists but not Muslim fundalmentalists.

[Matt W]

Quote by: tinybear Ever been to Hong Kong or Singapore? :) But what's your point? The fact that there's corruption in most Asian countries doesn't detract from the fact that Malaysia and Indonesia practise blatant racial & religious discrimination policies.

Ah, two countries which don't have high debt, substandard education, and poverty....good selective reading, as per usual, tb.

Now...anything to add about China? Or North Korea? Or Japan? Racial and religious discrimination isn't just a Muslim thing, tb. Keep that in mind.

[tinybear]

Quote by: Matt W Now...anything to add about China? Or North Korea? Or Japan? Racial and religious discrimination isn't just a Muslim thing, tb. Keep that in mind.

Sure, I know that, but I was only responding to Decider's suggestion that Malaysia and Indonesia are shining examples of enlightened Islamic nations.

[Matt W]

And ignoring the point he made in the process about why several Asian countries are corrupt. Par for the course, I see.