Vegans jailed over death of baby

[Heather]

Quote by: pikatore I was thinking of taking the natural way out

I guess that depends on your definition of natural. If by natural you mean breastfeeding, I agree. I myself fail to understand taking upon oneself the commitment of having a child, yet not committing to breastfeeding considering it's large advantages. But as far as meat/dairy/egg consumption is concerned, if one plans that to be the diet of their family, again, as the party responsible for their child's welfare, it only make sense that they educate themselves well enough to know the dietary needs of the child that is dependent upon them for those needs. There is no excuse, in my opinion, for doing otherwise, no matter what diet a parent chooses for their child, vegan or otherwise.

[Rinoa]

Quote by: warzone I feel melaucholy to bad luck of this baby.He can't eat delicious meat.

Wow, because meat is the biggest thing that baby will be missing out on...lol

Quote by: Heather I must say I agree that the parents should be held responsible, however, I cannot argue in anyway that the duration of the sentencing could have been "too" much in anyway. Their child died due to neglect, an in my opinion, that is unacceptable under and circumstances.

A question for you, did they plan out the malnutrition? Neglect implies that they simply forgot to take care of the baby. But they didn't. They planned a diet for the child despite having documentation saying that it wouldn't be enough, and in doing so prolonged the childs suffering. Neglecting to feed him from birth would have been more kind.

[Heather]

Quote by: Rinoa A question for you, did they plan out the malnutrition? Neglect implies that they simply forgot to take care of the baby. But they didn't. They planned a diet for the child despite having documentation saying that it wouldn't be enough, and in doing so prolonged the childs suffering. Neglecting to feed him from birth would have been more kind.

I would not presume to know if they planned out anything. I think however, it would be natural to assume they didn't plan the death of their child. Either way, it's irrelavant. I stand by the belief that if you commit to something, you damn well better know how to commit to it. Unfortunate yes, that a child's life was the price that was paid for this irresponsible act.

[-Cellar_Door-]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready What a shame. I hope the parents are held responsible.

Clearly they are, seeing as how they now have a life sentence.

[Derach]

I wonder if a pregnant woman who was strictly adhering to an Atkins diet would be endangering her fetus or newborn. I would imagine so.

Just goes to show .... moderation is the key to healthy living, I guess.

[Rinoa]

Quote by: -Cellar_Door- Clearly they are, seeing as how they now have a life sentence.

Welcome to volconvo!
He is reffering to the chance of them getting off in a subsequent appeal.

Quote by: Derach I wonder if a pregnant woman who was strictly adhering to an Atkins diet would be endangering her fetus or newborn. I would imagine so. Just goes to show .... moderation is the key to healthy living, I guess.

Diets in general really aren't good. The mentality that you will deprive yourself of food until you lose the weight and then just go right back to your old lifestyle the day it's over is bad. It needs to be a moderate permanent change to eating foods that are healthy, not a month long ban from any meal over 200 calories.

[LordCaelvan]

I would have to say that in the case of these parents, it wasn't that they are vegan, it's that they are neglectful. It wasn't that the diet was vegan, as it is possible to survive on a vegan diet (in fact, it is important to, not that many realize that at this poitn). It was the fact that the diet itself was poor.

If it's bloody difficult to raise a child on a vegan diet as you even admit, why commit to such a ridiculously restrictive diet? And why impose such extreme eating habits on your siblings?

These people feel the same way I do. One, it is morally wrong to eat the flesh of another being, human or not. Two, the ecenomic and environmental inpacts of the meat industry make it completly unacceptable to be anything except a vegitarian/vegan.

Catholic parents raise their kids Catholic. Kind parents raise their kids to be kind. Vegan parents raise their kids to be vegan. You can't expect them to act as though their lifestyle is the one lifestyle that can't be passed on, simply because you yourself don't agree with it.

Keep in mind, I'm not defending the neglectful parents, I'm defending the vegan parents at this point.

[Rinoa]

LC I'm curious as to your stance on breast milk and supplements. Are those acceptable?

[pikatore]

LC, the diet was poor BECUASE it was vegan. Unless supplements and protein mixes were used (which replaced other 'unclean' food groups that vegans shun), a vegan diet is nutritionally restrictive and unheathly. It would be ignorant to claim otherwise.

And pray tell, how is drinking a woman's breast milk the same as eating her flesh?!

[LordCaelvan]

Woah, woah. I never said I was against breast feeding. That's an exception. Keep in mind that I'm not a vegan (yet, just havn't made the jump). The only reason I'm against normal dairy is that it can be bad for the environment. It takes far more to produce a gallon of milk or a pound of meat than it does to produce like quantities of grain. Allow me to go on the record saying that I am 100% for breast feeding. Of course, like many unofficial groups, my specific views can differ from another vegi/vegan's.

And no, I cannot say that I agree that the diet was poor because it was vegan. Really, if these are the type of people that are going to allow their child to slowly starve to death over the span of six months, they obviously have something wrong with them. There are plenty of ways to feed a child a bad diet. It just so happened that the vegan diet was the smoking gun. And from my personal experiance, most vegans that I know use suppliments as part of their daily diets. I know I certainly do, despite the fact that I eat dairy on a daily basis (I'm a hypocrite, I know. I'll make the jump one of these days. If it were a couple thousand years ago, a vegan diet would be unviable. But just as it would be ignorant to claim other, it is likewise ignorant to claim that the same goes for 2007,

[pikatore]

God. Next thing you know, people will start eating thier own poop mixed with gravel, because plants are living creatures too.

[Mia]

The fact that you have to take supplements doesn't tell you the vegan diet is incomplete?

What were people to do before supplements, die because it's immoral to eat animals?

Why were our teeth and our digestive systems and everything about the way the body works created around an omnivorous diet?

Pikatore - LOL!

[Rinoa]

Quote by: LordCaelvan Woah, woah. I never said I was against breast feeding. That's an exception. Keep in mind that I'm not a vegan (yet, just havn't made the jump). The only reason I'm against normal dairy is that it can be bad for the environment. It takes far more to produce a gallon of milk or a pound of meat than it does to produce like quantities of grain. Allow me to go on the record saying that I am 100% for breast feeding. Of course, like many unofficial groups, my specific views can differ from another vegi/vegan's.

I know pikatore was accusing...But I was just curious, it always surprises me when breast feeding is found to be anti vegan, and I'd like to know whatever logic may be behind that.

And no, I cannot say that I agree that the diet was poor because it was vegan. Really, if these are the type of people that are going to allow their child to slowly starve to death over the span of six months, they obviously have something wrong with them. There are plenty of ways to feed a child a bad diet. It just so happened that the vegan diet was the smoking gun. And from my personal experiance, most vegans that I know use suppliments as part of their daily diets. I know I certainly do, despite the fact that I eat dairy on a daily basis (I'm a hypocrite, I know. I'll make the jump one of these days. If it were a couple thousand years ago, a vegan diet would be unviable. But just as it would be ignorant to claim other, it is likewise ignorant to claim that the same goes for 2007,

a) The child was dead in six weeks and the people I've spoken to say that considering the diet it's surprising he lived that long.

b) The fact that you have to take supplements to live that way kinda does imply that it isn't natural.

[LordCaelvan]

PIKATORE-
I'm ready to debate whenever you are.
MIA-
I didn't say that the veg diet was viable for ancient people. But the existance of suppliments today makes it possible for modern people. In addition, although I take suppliments, to well, suppliment my diet, that doesn't mean that it is impossible to be a veg without them. Anything found in meat and dairy can be found elsewhere, if you look hard enough.

And I fully understand that people are "born omnivore". That doesn't mean we can't change ourselves. That argument for eating meat is probably the one I hear most, and it kills me every time. "It's natural to eat meat". So what? You aren't physically required to kill that cow and eat it. You aren't even really required by your diet, since you can find other sources for your nutrition. Being natural, sticking with your roots, that doesn't mean anything.
RINOA-
Yes, I admit that the diet was poor. You havn't prooved that it was poor simply because it was vegan yet.

And going back to what I said before, who cares if it's natural or not? I'm not big on predetermination or sticking with my roots/instincts very much. If I can look at it, use my brain to see that it could be different, am able to do it differently, and there is no magical force preventing me from making that change because it is "unnatural", then I'll make it in a heartbeat, and not look back.

[Heather]

Quote by: pikatore God. Next thing you know, people will start eating thier own poop mixed with gravel, because plants are living creatures too.

I know a few dogs who already adhere to this idea. Who knows, perhaps they know something we don’t. :rolleyes:

[Mia]

OK, so it was OK for people in past times to be immoral, but not for us?

Where do these morals come from? God? If he made us to eat meat, obviously He doesn't consider it immoral.

Nature? Same answer.

[Derach]

To be strictly vegan is an imbalanced diet that is healthy only when supplemented with the rest of the protein and vitamins the body needs to survive. A limited, well balanced diet is a healthier, more natural way to life a healthier lifestyle. This whole vegan debate serves to remind us of the extremes with which people today too often want to live their lives. This couple defined themselves as 'vegan' ... for this baby, that vegan diet was fatal. Have whatever opinion you want about it, but be wise to the consequences of your choices. Don't tell me on the one hand that veganism is far and away the best and healthiest way to live, and when I show you a dead baby, say 'well, you need supplements' ... what's next? ... The supplements in pill form cause cancer? ... The manufacture of these supplements is environmentally harmful? ... I don't know, and if you can put a healthy diet together for you and your family with a clear conscience and if you want to label it 'veganism (with supplements)' ... fine, but if you kill your baby, you were wrong about it ... and you should pay. I respect your whacky right to be a vegan and have to take artificially produced supplements even though I think it's a retarded idea. You have the right to think that a balanced diet of protein, 'good' fat, carbohydrates, and fiber is a whacky idea too ... but you also have to accept it. If either results in the death or your kid, it is equally tragic, and you should be held equally to blame.

[Rinoa]

Quote by: LordCaelvan RINOA- Yes, I admit that the diet was poor. You havn't prooved that it was poor simply because it was vegan yet.

Not really trying to, just correcting a few facts and agreeing with the other posters, a sufficient diet would not require supplements. If the diet requires supplements it is not sufficient.

[LordCaelvan]

My apologizes for getting back to all of you so late, I've been studying for exams.

MAI-
All I'm saying is that I don't judge people from the past based on desisions they made without the options we have today. And as for your line about God meaning for us to eat meat, well, you first have to proove that there is a god, and I think that's for another thread.
DERACH-

To be strictly vegan is an imbalanced diet that is healthy only when supplemented with the rest of the protein and vitamins the body needs to survive.

False. A strictly vegan diet CAN be unbalanced, but isn't nessasarally. It is possible to attain all nutriants found in meat and dairy from other sources. Two further points on this matter. I, like most others, take suppliments to make it easier for me, but it isn't strictly a requirement. Second, considering the fact that the children may have trouble consuming some of these foods (for obviouse reasons), it would be best for that child, even with vegan parents, to breastfeed. That may not be what these people thought, but it is what I would say.

[pikatore]

LordCaelvan, there are certain proteins and amino acids that ONLY exist in meat. To commit to a vegan diet puts your body under unneccessary, and unnatural strain, by forcing it to synthesise all those other proteins from vegetable matter when you should be getting them from the source, and letting your body metabolise more efficiently.