Vegans jailed over death of baby

[RickSp]

Death by Veganism

WHEN Crown Shakur died of starvation, he was 6 weeks old and weighed 3.5 pounds. His vegan parents, who fed him mainly soy milk and apple juice, were convicted in Atlanta recently of murder, involuntary manslaughter and cruelty. This particular calamity — at least the third such conviction of vegan parents in four years — may be largely due to ignorance. But it should prompt frank discussion about nutrition. I was once a vegan. But well before I became pregnant, I concluded that a vegan pregnancy was irresponsible. You cannot create and nourish a robust baby merely on foods from plants. Indigenous cuisines offer clues about what humans, naturally omnivorous, need to survive, reproduce and grow: traditional vegetarian diets, as in India, invariably include dairy and eggs for complete protein, essential fats and vitamins. There are no vegan societies for a simple reason: a vegan diet is not adequate in the long run. Protein deficiency is one danger of a vegan diet for babies. Nutritionists used to speak of proteins as “first class” (from meat, fish, eggs and milk) and “second class” (from plants), but today this is considered denigrating to vegetarians. The fact remains, though, that humans prefer animal proteins and fats to cereals and tubers, because they contain all the essential amino acids needed for life in the right ratio. This is not true of plant proteins, which are inferior in quantity and quality — even soy. A vegan diet may lack vitamin B12, found only in animal foods; usable vitamins A and D, found in meat, fish, eggs and butter; and necessary minerals like calcium and zinc. When babies are deprived of all these nutrients, they will suffer from retarded growth, rickets and nerve damage.

[Hostile55]

You cannot create and nourish a robust baby merely on foods from plants.

Thats not true at all. When I read the first post I was worried that every meat fanatic would come in and gripe about veggies. The fact is that these people are stupid. They are also american. I'm not suggesting any link just as I don't think there should be any link between them being vegans and them killing their baby.

A vegan diet may lack vitamin B12;usable vitamins A and D, found in meat, fish, eggs and butter; and necessary minerals like calcium and zinc. When babies are deprived of all these nutrients, they will suffer from retarded growth, rickets and nerve damage.

If we are in good health, not eating too many refined carbohyrdates and fatty nonsense that cloggs us up there are nice freindly bacteria in our intestines that makes vitamin B12 for us. Isnt that nice.

As for the other vitamins and minerals fresh fruit and veg straight of the plant are the best source.

[Chaossaber314]

Quote by: Hostile55 Thats not true at all. When I read the first post I was worried that every meat fanatic would come in and gripe about veggies. The fact is that these people are stupid. They are also american. I'm not suggesting any link just as I don't think there should be any link between them being vegans and them killing their baby.

So in other words you're saying they killed their baby because they're bad parents and are hiding behind their veganism?

[Heather]

Quote by: nm420 ...While getting a life sentence for this is waaaay over the top...

I would really have to disagree. By having a child, one makes a commitment to that child knowing that they are responsible for its care. Failure to provide adequate care should, and is, punishable. These parents could have given the child up for adoption if they felt that they could not provide properly for the infant. There is no reasonable excuse for improperly caring for it. Being vegan has nothing to do with it. I know of several people who have raised very healthy vegan babies/children.

[pikatore]

Quote by: Hostile55 Thats not true at all. When I read the first post I was worried that every meat fanatic would come in and gripe about veggies. The fact is that these people are stupid. They are also american. I'm not suggesting any link just as I don't think there should be any link between them being vegans and them killing their baby.

Well if a vegan diet can kill infants, one wonders if veganism ITSELF is a smart ideology, or one based on ignorant, ill-formed, and extreme moral choices.

If veganism can't support a baby, why the hell would it be considered natural by vegans? Pretty stupid, isn't it?

Quote by: Hostile55 If we are in good health, not eating too many refined carbohyrdates and fatty nonsense that cloggs us up there are nice freindly bacteria in our intestines that makes vitamin B12 for us. Isnt that nice.

Yeah, damn those unhealthy, disgusting carbohydrates.

And that 'fatty nonsense'. You do realise that fat can actually be good for you, and essential to your survival? That there are different types of fat???

Quote by: Hostile55 As for the other vitamins and minerals fresh fruit and veg straight of the plant are the best source.

There are many proteins meat provides that veges don't. The body has to go to extra lengths to synthesise those missing proteins (which is a very inefficient process), and put extra strain on the body's metabolic processes. That's why although more obese people tend to be omnivorous (though fries and sweets and other sugary things aren't made of meat), bodybuilders and athletes can't survive on a vege diet. It makes you wonder why. Vegatarianism and veganism are both born of ignorance.

[Rinoa]

Quote by: pikatore There are many proteins meat provides that veges don't. The body has to go to extra lengths to synthesise those missing proteins (which is a very inefficient process), and put extra strain on the body's metabolic processes. That's why although more obese people tend to be omnivorous (though fries and sweets and other sugary things aren't made of meat), bodybuilders and athletes can't survive on a vege diet. It makes you wonder why. Vegatarianism and veganism are both born of ignorance.

Athletes make a decision to lead a lifestyle that requires more proteins, fats, and food in general. Their lifestyle greatly affects their diet, and while some do it to be healthy a large number of them end up damaging their bodies by pushing them too far. Examples are athletes that elect to use steroids, or they may choose not to take the full recovery time needed after, say, twisting an ankle in a race.

My point is that everyone has the right to choose how they live and that every lifestyle has it's bad points. Vegan seems to be the overboard part to me, imo, vegetarians are like normal athletes that simply train and take care of their bodies using different diets and lifestyle techniques. Vegans seem to be like the athletes that don't allow their body full recovery time. Both make choices to be the way they are, and both have a right to that choice. The only time it should irritate another person is if it is either harming them or one person is trying to force their lifestyle beliefs onto another.

[pikatore]

Just because I find vegatarianism irritating, that doesn't mean I want to enforce my opinion on others.

[Rinoa]

I never said that you did. Reread my post and you'll see that all I said was that
a)People have a right to choose their own lifestyle

b)There are extremists in every group, and that all extremes are harmful

c)People should not force each other to adopt lifestyles that don't belong to them.

Nothing in there even begins to imply that you were guilty of c. All I said was that vegans have a right to be vegan, and that it doesn't affect you in the slightest.

[pikatore]

Misinterpreted your last sentence, sorry.

[Derach]

What is troubling is that these parents were likely to be the type to argue how healthy the vegan lifestyle is ... and when confronted with facts about the dangers, particularly during pregnancy and to infants, they probably dug their heads deeper into the sand and took a fanatical, religious-like stance out of ignorance. Now the worst case scenario has played out, and I'm sorry if I don't think them shrugging their shoulders and saying "oops, I guess you were right, my bad" ... should cut it. What they do to their own bodies is one thing (I'll save the social cost of irresponsible behavior that has detrimental health affects for another thread), what they do to an infant that they claim they wanted and loved is another thing entirely. As was stated, starving a baby isn't a 'bad decision' .. it's knowingly inflicting slow torture until death ensues. That is criminal. Would we have the same attitude if the parents slowly deprived the child of, say, oxygen?? Because maybe they believed that the child would develop gills if they gave birth to it underwater??? At what point do we hold people accountable if not for the murder of their 6 week old child?? Veganism is a learned behavior ... humans by nature will not reject animal-borne protein or sustinence. Veganism is a choice people should be free to pursue (like satan-worship) ... but if it starts resulting in the deaths of children (like infant-sacrifices) ... then society needs to step in ... swiftly and decisively.

[vicious-vegan]

Why wasn't the baby getting breastmilk? That's not non-vegan. Human milk is for humans, that's pretty sad.

[Ohmycaptain]

This is ridiculous.

Any family that is so strictly vegan, and is against the killing of animals, what about their own people? And their child at that!? Shouldn't they know better than to feed them vegan things just because it's their beliefs?

If you want your child to be vegan, then so be it, but to feed a baby on a stricly vegan diet when clearly it isn't good for the baby, as it isn't even good for adults, is just plain stupidity.

They play the whole "oh we are vegans though!", that doesn't cut it. You can't just blame the death of your malnurished baby because your beleifs in being vegan.

[Heather]

Quote by: vicious-vegan Why wasn't the baby getting breastmilk? That's not non-vegan. Human milk is for humans, that's pretty sad.

Not breastfeeding has become "popular" these days among people of all walks of life despite the fact that breast milk provides for an infant anti-bodies, etc. that the infant can get from no where else. It's a stupid decision to not breastfeed at best, I agree.

Quote by: Ohmycaptain This is ridiculous. Any family that is so strictly vegan, and is against the killing of animals, what about their own people? And their child at that!? Shouldn't they know better than to feed them vegan things just because it's their beliefs? If you want your child to be vegan, then so be it, but to feed a baby on a stricly vegan diet when clearly it isn't good for the baby, as it isn't even good for adults, is just plain stupidity. They play the whole "oh we are vegans though!", that doesn't cut it. You can't just blame the death of your malnurished baby because your beleifs in being vegan.

I agree that it makes little sense that their infant child died because of their incompetence, however, I have seen some very healthy infants who were raised vegan from day one. The difference here is that their parents knew what they were doing and actually cared for their child as a parent should by knowing how to properly provide for them nutritionally, and otherwise.

[Mozart1220]

Quote by: nm420 I take it even the mother's own milk is too "animal" to feed her baby? While getting a life sentence for this is waaaay over the top, this just goes to show how ridiculous some people can be when it comes to this vegan lifestyle. Humans are mammals last time I checked, and that means our newborns need to be fed milk from their mother's teats. Sure, it may be possible to raise a healthy baby on a strictly vegan diet, but you would need some near-expert knowledge on nutrition and development, which this couple obviously did not possess. I don't know that they should have been charged with anything criminal, but they certainly deserve an honorable mention for the Darwin Awards.

I don't think a life sentance is "way over the top", in fact I think they should not only do life in prison, but only be fed soy milk and apple juice.

Then they should only get restroom privilages once per day.

[warzone]

I feel melaucholy to bad luck of this baby.He can't eat delicious meat.

[bishop]

the parents will no longer be able to reproduce by the time they're out of prison - if that's any consolation..

the truly stupid thing about these "parents" was that they fed the baby soy milk, when they could've used soy baby formula and still remain true to their foliage lifestyle.

Phytoestrogens and soy based infant formula -- Essex 313 (7056): 507 -- BMJ

[LordCaelvan]

Speaking as a vegitarian preparing to become a vegan, I think that these parents should be held responsible for what they did. I'm not a lawyer, and I've never spent a day of my life in jail, so I can't speak for the durration of their sentence and whether it was fair or not.

Even if it is difficult, it is possible to raise a child as a vegan. Apple juice and soy milk is not sufficiant though. They failed to feed their child what it needed, and they are getting what they deserve.

[pikatore]

If it's bloody difficult to raise a child on a vegan diet as you even admit, why commit to such a ridiculously restrictive diet? And why impose such extreme eating habits on your siblings?

[Heather]

Quote by: warzone I feel melaucholy to bad luck of this baby.He can't eat delicious meat.

~*lol*~ Interesting perspective.

Very good point Bishop. And just goes to show that the fact that they were vegan has little to do with the fact that they were irresponsible parents.

Quote by: LordCaelvan Speaking as a vegitarian preparing to become a vegan, I think that these parents should be held responsible for what they did. I'm not a lawyer, and I've never spent a day of my life in jail, so I can't speak for the durration of their sentence and whether it was fair or not.

First, welcome to Volconvo! Glad you joined us.

I must say I agree that the parents should be held responsible, however, I cannot argue in anyway that the duration of the sentencing could have been "too" much in anyway. Their child died due to neglect, an in my opinion, that is unacceptable under and circumstances.

Quote by: pikatore If it's bloody difficult to raise a child on a vegan diet as you even admit, why commit to such a ridiculously restrictive diet? And why impose such extreme eating habits on your siblings?

I think if one is educated in what they are doing, there is little wrong with the concept. I would hate to see a world where we all shutter from committing to something that is "difficult" for the sake of the easy way out.

[pikatore]

Quote by: Heather I think if one is educated in what they are doing, there is little wrong with the concept. I would hate to see a world where we all shutter from committing to something that is "difficult" for the sake of the easy way out.

I was thinking of taking the natural way out