Sarkozy wins French presidency

[RickSp]

Quote by: rmnunez Oh? So the French voted for Sarkozy because of his strong anti-united statianism? And why did he immediately come out with those friendly signals towards the US?

What an odd and apparently stupid thing to say. Are you suggesting that the French would vote for a candidate primarily based his or her views of the US? Sarko has been referred to as "the American" by some in the French press but it was considered as an insult, sort of the Gallic equivalent of the Americans calling the French "surrender monkeys".

[rmnunez]

Yes, when the Spanish elections favoured Zapatero we were told this was because Aznar supported Bush too much, Lula, Michelle Bachelet, Evo Morales, Chavez and other heads of state are said to have prevailed in their elections due to their explicit anti-united statianism, why wouldn't one read into the French election as much?

But in France the conservative prevailed over the socialistic contender who was most vociferous in her opposition to all things united statian, and as noted, her opponent was derided as "the American". It looks like anti-united statianism is on the wane in France.

[The Decider]

Quote by: rmnunez Yes, when the Spanish elections favoured Zapatero we were told this was because Aznar supported Bush too much, Lula, Michelle Bachelet, Evo Morales, Chavez and other heads of state are said to have prevailed in their elections due to their explicit anti-united statianism, why wouldn't one read into the French election as much? But in France the conservative prevailed over the socialistic contender who was most vociferous in her opposition to all things united statian, and as noted, her opponent was derided as "the American". It looks like anti-united statianism is on the wane in France.

What anti-Americanism by Chirac is Sarkozy supposed to fix, nunez?

[RickSp]

Quote by: rmnunez But in France the conservative prevailed over the socialistic contender who was most vociferous in her opposition to all things united statian, and as noted, her opponent was derided as "the American". It looks like anti-united statianism is on the wane in France.

Sego was also a dreadful candidate. I think you are significantly overstating Sarko's pro-American leanings. He is far more likely to distance himself from the US than cozy up to it.

[The Decider]

Quote by: RickSp Sego was also a dreadful candidate. I think you are significantly overstating Sarko's pro-American leanings. He is far more likely to distance himself from the US than cozy up to it.

Rick, could you hazard a guess as to what nunez means by Chirac's anti-Americanism (other than the Iraq War opposition)? He won't offer a reply. I don't see where Sarko improves on Chirac in the anti-American department, unless it's a trade issue or the like.

[RickSp]

Quote by: The Decider Rick, could you hazard a guess as to what nunez means by Chirac's anti-Americanism (other than the Iraq War opposition)? He won't offer a reply. I don't see where Sarko improves on Chirac in the anti-American department, unless it's a trade issue or the like.

Isn't it obvious? Chirac effectively blocked any chance of the UN approving Bush's invasion of Iraq. Chirac refused to play the puppy dog, le chien de chiot, like Tony Blair.

Anyone who doesn't follow American orders is considered anti-American. Typical imperial hubris.

[The Decider]

Quote by: RickSp Isn't it obvious? Chirac effectively blocked any chance of the UN approving Bush's invasion of Iraq. Chirac refused to play the puppy dog, le chien de chiot, like Tony Blair. Anyone who doesn't follow American orders is considered anti-American. Typical imperial hubris.

Right, but Sarko doesn't support the Iraq War. So where is the improvement for America-France relations with Sarko? Nunez's silence speaks volumes.

[rmnunez]

No, I don't suppose we will see Sarkozy endorsing the effort in Iraq, but under Chirac the French led others in opposing the US. France opposed the no-flys, sanctions and insatisfaction with the inspections. France denounced threats to Iraq and concealed lucrative contracts their parastatals had draw-up with Saddam. France promised to veto any Resolution the US brought to the Security Council and rallied others to oppose these too. France actually threatened potential EU members with preventing their admission for supporting the US.

[The Decider]

Quote by: rmnunez No, I don't suppose we will see Sarkozy endorsing the effort in Iraq, but under Chirac the French led others in opposing the US. France opposed the no-flys, sanctions and insatisfaction with the inspections. France denounced threats to Iraq and concealed lucrative contracts their parastatals had draw-up with Saddam. France promised to veto any Resolution the US brought to the Security Council and rallied others to oppose these too. France actually threatened potential EU members with preventing their admission for supporting the US.

Just as I figured---it's all Iraq. Nunez, Chirac was vindicated on the Iraq War. It's about the only popular thing he did, in France and elsewhere in the world. Most Americans agree with the same position--the Iraq War was a mistake. A disastrous mistake. That's not anti-American these days, except maybe in some parts of Mexico City.

The issue about France's contracts with Saddam is a red herring. The French PEOPLE opposed the war, along with most of the world.

So I ask you again, what "anti-American" Chirac policies will Sarkozy overturn?

[brien]

Rather than speculate on Sarkozy, perhaps it is best to just wait and see the course he charts for the French.I tend to agree with Nono and think that things won't change all that much. The Conservative hoopla may be somewhat premature. Although I did hear that he is pushing for students to stand at attention when the teacher enters the classroom. Now that is real change!

[Nono]

Quote by: rmnunez When the Spanish elections favoured Zapatero we were told this was because Aznar supported Bush too much.

Who told you that, rum? It was lying about evidence in connection with the Madrid bombing that sealed his fate.

Quote by: brien Things won't change all that much. The Conservative hoopla may be somewhat premature. Although I did hear that he is pushing for students to stand at attention when the teacher enters the classroom. Now that is real change!

Sarko was interior minister. Those guys tend to be law'n'order populists. So we can expect more emphasis on authority and a crackdown on lawlessness (i.e. lawlessness committed by those other than Sarko's cronies...). Whether the measures will make the situation in the banlieues better or worse is another question.

In the meantime Sarko is the most pro-American French president since, well, Mitterand maybe? Or maybe ever. Big deal. That won't erase a thousand years of Anglo-French animosity, and French (or Spanish, eh rummie?) anti-Americanism is but a latter-day continuation of traditional anti-Englishism. Sarko isn't going to overturn that.

Nicolas Sarkozy is a bit of a lean'n'mean, laissez-faire social-Darwinist and therefore sees more eye-to-eye with the US than your average French leader. But he's still leader of France.

[GHook93]

Quote by: RickSp Anyone who calls Sarko pro-American is missing the point. He was called "the American" by his opponents and it wasn't meant as a compliment. Sarko has gone out of the way to demonstrate his independence. He has opposed the Iraq war from the start and is a committed protectionist. He will not be the submissive "puppy dog" that Tony Blair turned out to be.

Not a compliment to him in the French eyes, but it is good to the US. She said it, because he was pro-American.

Your right it would be like a American politician being called French, which would be viewed negatively by Americans, but the French would very in positively as a pro-French American Politician.

[rmnunez]

The fringe is burning with ire:

President-elect Nicolas Sarkozy relaxed and strategised Tuesday on a luxury yacht in the Mediterranean, while back home "anti-Sarko" protests rumbled on into a third consecutive night. Sarkozy boarded the vessel in Malta with his wife Cecilia and their 10-year-old son Louis on Monday at the start of a three-day break to relax after the right-winger's emphatic weekend election victory. The Sarkozys escaped the heady post-election atmosphere in Paris on board a private Falcon jet belonging to a wealthy industrialist friend, Vincent Bollore. The yacht, a 60-metre (200-foot) vessel called Paloma also believed to belong to Bollore, can accommodate 12 people. The rental price for the boat in high season would normally be up to 200,000 euros (270,000 dollars) per week. "Mr Sarkozy never said he would be the president of the poor. He is the president of the CAC 40" Paris stock exchange, Jean-Luc Melenchon told France Inter radio. Sarkozy's election triumph has sparked protests across the country, many of them violent. They began late Sunday and continued Monday night, prompting the leader of the defeated Socialists to appeal for calm. Overnight Monday some 500 youths shouting "Sarko, fascist!" went on a rampage in the Bastille district of Paris, burning 10 cars, looting two stores and smashing windows, police said. More than 200 people were detained during four hours of clashes with police. Sarkozy, a tough-talking former interior minister, is hated in the high-immigrant suburbs after he described young delinquents as "rabble" and for his stance on law and order. It was under his watch that the suburbs across France exploded into riots for three weeks in late 2005, in which hundreds of buildings were burned and thousands of cars torched. Sarkozy holidays as fresh violence hits French cities

So, even if Sarkozy's election reflects some measure of endorsement to conservative views, in France the critical left is noisy and can influence things burning lots of cars and looting shops.

[The Decider]

Quote by: rmnunez The fringe is burning with ire: So, even if Sarkozy's election reflects some measure of endorsement to conservative views, in France the critical left is noisy and can influence things burning lots of cars and looting shops.

Do 500 youths in Bastille represent the entire "critical left" for the critical right? As a spokesman for the critical right, Nunez, is that your position?

[rmnunez]

I doubt 500 youths (and all the others in riots across France which destroyed almost 800 cars that day) represent the entire critical left, they reflect the critical left, tend to magnify and exagerate it a bit. There are more sensible lefties who accept private property, banking interests, speculation, business principles and profiting. Other critical lefties include the ecologists, pacifists and their anti-nuke meld. I'd include assorted social engineering folks for educational and sustainable development plans. They'd include feminists and associated alternatively life-styled, there are also the multi-culturally inclined. Some are environmentally focused, others are more worried about human rights, there are trade unionists and advocates for the underprivedged in all their manifestations, most evidently the immigrants in this case. Most of these disparate political perspectives shares a repudiation for the US and all things emanating therefrom. This is the critical left in France and its fringe quite evidently expresses itself in these riots.

These riots were the sort of thing Sarkozy was charged with handling and so unsuccessfully did, in his assignment as Interior Minister, and the repression with which he confronted those immigrant youths bodes ill for how the critical left will be handled in France under his government.

[BobbyO]

Quote by: The Decider Just as I figured---it's all Iraq. Nunez, Chirac was vindicated on the Iraq War. It's about the only popular thing he did, in France and elsewhere in the world. Most Americans agree with the same position--the Iraq War was a mistake. A disastrous mistake. That's not anti-American these days, except maybe in some parts of Mexico City. The issue about France's contracts with Saddam is a red herring. The French PEOPLE opposed the war, along with most of the world. So I ask you again, what "anti-American" Chirac policies will Sarkozy overturn?

Chirac's opposition to the war had nothing to do with his stated skepticism of Iraq's possession of WMD's. It had to do with protecting a longstatnding buddy of France. Chirac alos was of the opinion it would be no big deal if Iran developed nuclear weaponry- at a time he was leading negotiations into stopping Iran from developing nuclear technology. And don't forget his frequent travels throughout France's former colonies in Africa, extolling the virtues of the various one party tyrannies which evolved.

This sort of nonsense will end under Sakorzy.

[Nono]

Quote by: rmnunez In France the critical left is noisy ...

Good old rummie -- the words "critical" and "left" are still welded firmly together in your vocabulary. And right you are.

But as usual you're ignoring an elephant or two in the living room. The fact is that plenty of rightists (example: the right-wing newspaper Le Figaro, which supported Sarko) have expressed their dismay at the little twerp acting so quickly to confirm his super-cronyist image.

[brien]

Big deal. That won't erase a thousand years of Anglo-French animosity, and French (or Spanish, eh rummie?) anti-Americanism is but a latter-day continuation of traditional anti-Englishism. Sarko isn't going to overturn that

Hey, I just want my french fries back. Never gave up my beloved French Wine.

Those boycotts were ridiculous. My company handles tons and tons of French steel and Americans are clueless on how much steel fabricated in France is in their beloved Toyota cars. Boycotts..:rolleyes:

[The Decider]

Quote by: BobbyO Chirac's opposition to the war had nothing to do with his stated skepticism of Iraq's possession of WMD's. It had to do with protecting a longstatnding buddy of France. Chirac alos was of the opinion it would be no big deal if Iran developed nuclear weaponry- at a time he was leading negotiations into stopping Iran from developing nuclear technology. And don't forget his frequent travels throughout France's former colonies in Africa, extolling the virtues of the various one party tyrannies which evolved. This sort of nonsense will end under Sakorzy.

Let's assume for the moment that your recitation of 2003 Republican talking points on France is correct. Chirac sounds more pro-Chirac than anti-American--protecting French business interests in Iraq, Iran, and Africa. In other words, Chirac was "corrupt." Say it 'aint so, Bobby O! Everybody knew Chirac was corrupt, even the French public! Chirac's popularity before the Iraq War was tanking as scandal after scandal emerged in the press. One of the greatest ironies of the Iraq War was how it saved Chirac's career (second only, perhaps, to how it ruined Blair's).

And why did the Iraq War save Chirac's political hiney? Because the French people overwhelmingly opposed the war, like 90 percent of the world. It that's "anti-American," than 65% of Americans who oppose this war are anti-American.

Chirac was pro-Chirac. He was not anti-American.

[The Decider]

Quote by: rmnunez I doubt 500 youths (and all the others in riots across France which destroyed almost 800 cars that day) represent the entire critical left, they reflect the critical left, tend to magnify and exagerate it a bit. There are more sensible lefties who accept private property, banking interests, speculation, business principles and profiting. Other critical lefties include the ecologists, pacifists and their anti-nuke meld. I'd include assorted social engineering folks for educational and sustainable development plans. They'd include feminists and associated alternatively life-styled, there are also the multi-culturally inclined. Some are environmentally focused, others are more worried about human rights, there are trade unionists and advocates for the underprivedged in all their manifestations, most evidently the immigrants in this case. Most of these disparate political perspectives shares a repudiation for the US and all things emanating therefrom. This is the critical left in France and its fringe quite evidently expresses itself in these riots.

You have assembled all the "usual suspects" of critical rightie ire: the Greens, homosexuals, immigrant rights advocates, socialists, communists, and trade unionists. Sixty years ago, the Jews would have joined this august group, but thanks to the critical rightie "fringe," they're not enough of them in Europe to really make a difference.

These riots that you claim represent the "noise" of the critical lefties were sporadic and not nearly as widespread as doomsayers had predicted. The only predictable event was the collective blame of the French Left for the riots by the right. If that's your position Nunez, then I will gather all evidence from the "noisy" critical right, like attacks on immigrants and synagogues, and collectively blame all of your wingnut allies in France. You want to go down that road?

Quote by: rmnunez These riots were the sort of thing Sarkozy was charged with handling and so unsuccessfully did, in his assignment as Interior Minister, and the repression with which he confronted those immigrant youths bodes ill for how the critical left will be handled in France under his government.

Perhaps Sarko will slam the iron fist of French law and order on the immigrant slums. Much will depend on how he wields that fist. If Sarko offers mostly sticks and few carrots, he may ignite something the entire nation will regret. We'll see.