Taliban cmdr. may have targeted Canadian troops:

[Derach]

Yeah why? Because they'll kick my ass? They'll shoot me? Butcher me? That'd at least prove me right, now wouldn't it? Same thing can be said about calling all Taliban and the sort Butchers.... say it to their face and see what happens...... I was expressing the hypocracy that seems to rot this place often, and how foolish the mentality is.

Prax - I won't generalize ... but it's safe to say the marines I know would verbally undress you and leave you badly in need of a change of underclothes before they were done.

US Marines are in no way comperable to the Taliban or Al Qaeda and you need look no further than each's mission statement for proof. The Marines are sworn to uphold the law and constitution and to obey their orders so long as they do not break some basic human right tenents. The fact that a few of these men have broken that vow is HUGELY different than the Taliban and Al Qaeda who are following there mission statment by resorting to the acts you allude to having happened in viet nam. It's the status quo for them ... it's the exception to the rule (and harshly punished) when it happens to the Marines.

There really is no comparison

[The Decider]

Quote by: Derach Prax - I won't generalize ... but it's safe to say the marines I know would verbally undress you and leave you badly in need of a change of underclothes before they were done.

That sounds vaguely gay. I thought "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" was still in effect?

Quote by: Derach US Marines are in no way comperable to the Taliban or Al Qaeda and you need look no further than each's mission statement for proof.

Yeah, well, Marines' standards are higher, serving a democratic nation and all. That means divergence from those standards, even rarely, gets alot of attention. As it should.

Quote by: Derach The fact that a few of these men have broken that vow is HUGELY different than the Taliban and Al Qaeda who are following there mission statment by resorting to the acts you allude to having happened in viet nam.

Well, exactly how "few" is open to question. Coverup and underreporting of incidents may push the number of Marine misfits upwards a bit. That happened in Vietnam. It's happening today. And whether or not the Taliban or some other enemy behaves the same way more regularly is irrelevant. The Marines, and America, can tolerate ZERO incidents, since we claim to represent goodness and honesty and democratic accountability. That's why Abu Ghraib hurt our nation so badly. Everytime some conservative compared that scandal to a college hazing, the enemy won another propaganda victory.

[Praxius]

Quote by: Derach Prax - I won't generalize ... but it's safe to say the marines I know would verbally undress you and leave you badly in need of a change of underclothes before they were done.

I'm sure they would.... They'd probably rape me, then shoot me, my family and plant weapons on our bodies and call me and my family insurgants.....

US Marines are in no way comperable to the Taliban or Al Qaeda and you need look no further than each's mission statement for proof.

Mission statements mean absolute squat to me.... it's actions that tell who a person is..... so far the actions of Marines are not that much better then your enemy.

The Marines are sworn to uphold the law and constitution and to obey their orders so long as they do not break some basic human right tenents. The fact that a few of these men have broken that vow is HUGELY different than the Taliban and Al Qaeda who are following there mission statment by resorting to the acts you allude to having happened in viet nam. It's the status quo for them ... it's the exception to the rule (and harshly punished) when it happens to the Marines. There really is no comparison

Pssh..... yeah ok.... the cover up in just about every Friendly fire incident, both in Afghanistan and Iraq, The unexplainable attacks on civilians in Afghanistan that are restricted from the media, and..... man... I could start off on here with a huge list of BS that Marines were right in the middle of..... but my lunch break is almost over.

You're trying to defend Marines from a US citizen's point of view.... a point of view saturated by your media who love to propaganda you for ratings and money..... I'm looking at both the Taliban/Al'Queda and the Marines/US Military, from new agencies from the UK, Canada, Australia, and elsewhere around the world..... besides those information outlets and my own common sense..... you telling me there is no compariosn, I think you need to open your eyes a bit.

I am not saying your Marines are pure as evil (Although I do get a bit of an "SS" vibe from them) The overall score table as of the last 5+ years hasn't been very complimenting for the majority of Marines. The Taliban for the most part have claimed war against you guys and I guess us too, in their own way.... the leaders of the Taliban are exactly like Bush and others around the world..... they're the figure heads who spit the propaganda they want out there, and they make the rest of those under them do all the work....... if you actually did some research on the average soldier in the Taliban, you'd realize they're fighting for their side, solely for money and food..... to the highest bidder..... they're trying to protect their lands from forign soldiers.... ie: Us..... the Allies, which the Taliban Leaders call the enemies who are here to destroy your religion and way of life......

If I believed that, I'd probably join as well.... but I'm on the other side of the spectrum of propaganda here, with you..... instead we got government officials claiming the exact same things about the Taliban, that the Taliban are calling us..... it's a Catch 22.... and that's what I was trying to get at.....

Not all Marines, or the US is evil.... but the bad actions of a select few can easily taint the overall view of you guys...... same goes for the Taliban....

Understanding your enemy and why they are doing what they are doing, is one big step in stopping bloodshed faster then just no communication and killing until one side is exterminated.

Until the two children can talk to one another and deal with each other's issues, they'll continue to throw spit balls at each other.....

All the Allies and the "Evil Terrorist" groups have to suck it up, and talk it out...... oh yeah.... but because Bush labeled them all Terrorists and you're not suppose to negotiate with terrorists, I guess het blocked that option now hasn't he? Oh but wait..... he's been wrong about every single dam thing he's done so far.... why would he be right calling them Terrorists?

[Derach]

Prax -

First of all .... I said 'verbally' ... not 'orally' ... if that set off your Gay-dar, it's a misunderstanding on your part, not mine.

Secondly ... there is DEFINITELY a distinction between few (yes, FEW) individuals within an organization whose duty is to 'protect and serve' the constitution that behave abhorrently and an organization whose entire 'raison d'etre' is abhorrent. Case in point: The marines, while 'liberating' Baghdad, excercised tremendous respect for the local culture, religion, and customs (to the extent that they removed the US flag that the locals cheered when raised, to replace it with Iraqi flags) ... in contrast, what did the Taliban do to the 800 yr old national monuments the Hindu's had erected when they took over?

It is disingenuous to compare a few bad apples within an otherwise honorable organization to a morally bankrupt organization that uses terrorism and targeting civilians to further their cause.

[Praxius]

Quote by: Derach Prax - First of all .... I said 'verbally' ... not 'orally' ... if that set off your Gay-dar, it's a misunderstanding on your part, not mine.

Nope, no confusion on that... just touching base with something that happened a while back in Iraq.... and isn't Verbally and Orally the same thing?

Secondly ... there is DEFINITELY a distinction between few (yes, FEW) individuals within an organization whose duty is to 'protect and serve' the constitution that behave abhorrently and an organization whose entire 'raison d'etre' is abhorrent. Case in point: The marines, while 'liberating' Baghdad, excercised tremendous respect for the local culture, religion, and customs (to the extent that they removed the US flag that the locals cheered when raised, to replace it with Iraqi flags)

If they had respect, they wouldn't have put up the US flag in the first place..... Iraq isn't part of the US..... well officially anyways.... what are you? The British Empire?

... in contrast, what did the Taliban do to the 800 yr old national monuments the Hindu's had erected when they took over?

Cultures differ around the world.... just because they don't live like we do, doesn't make us right. I have more care towards the living then I do about monuments. If you want to go along those lines, what about China and how they are opressing Taibet? I don't hear people calling them Terrorists or Butchers... even though they follow under the same category when you line up the things they did to the Taliban... much like I am doing with you guys and the Taliban.

It is disingenuous to compare a few bad apples within an otherwise honorable organization to a morally bankrupt organization that uses terrorism and targeting civilians to further their cause.

WTF? Have you looked at the other threads about the Civilian casualties at the hands of US troops in Afghanistan? I guess not, because if you did you would have noticed that in the last year, more civilians have died at the hands of your troops then from the Taliban..... so what does that tell you?

[Derach]

Prax - I respect and appreciate your opinion .... but it's wrong. If you want to get a better understanding about what 99% of US Marines value and how they act and who they kill, spend some time with them and don't be so quick to generalized based on (often) biased media reporting.

If you don't want a better understanding, that's fine too, but realize that your opinion is bourne from a great deal of ignorance mixed with just enough misinformation to paint a very inaccurate picture in your head of US Marines.

[The Decider]

Quote by: Derach If you want to get a better understanding about what 99% of US Marines value and how they act and who they kill, spend some time with them and don't be so quick to generalized based on (often) biased media reporting.

How about a "biased" Pentagon report that challenges your "99% of US Marines" values regarding proper conduct on the battlefield? It forced General Petraeus to lecture his troops yesterday:

"The Pentagon report included a range of findings that pointed to potential violations of military codes and standards, including only 40 percent of Marines and 55 percent of Army soldiers interviewed saying they would report a member of their unit for killing or wounding an innocent civilian.

The survey also found that 47 percent of U.S. soldiers and 38 percent of Marines interviewed saying noncombatants should be treated with dignity and respect; and 44 percent of Marines and 41 percent of soldiers said torture should be allowed to save the life of a soldier or Marine."

Petraeus Alarmed by Ethics Report

I agree with you that the Taliban and AQ are NOT the US Marines in a moral sense, but they don't represent democratic societies either. The US Marines have a higher bar to jump, and alot of them seem reluctant to leap. The Pentagon said so.

[Derach]

TD - my assertion is that 99% of US Marines would not intentionally kill an innocent civilian. In contrast, when a suicide bomber,who's family has been paid the equivelant of several yrs salary by Al Qaeda or Taliban leadership, blows himself up in a market, or indiscriminately targets troops that are in civilian areas ... that represents an intentional act that is not only condoned, but encouraged from the leadership, through the populace that has bought into that mindset, to their 'soldiers' that carry out the attacks. It is the trickle-down effect, so to speak.

The quote you made was interesting. What I said was that if you (or anyone) spent some time with US Marines ... I think you'd find that 99% of them would tell you (through their actions as well as their words ... and they'd be sincere) that innocent life should be protected at all costs. They'd tell you that not all Muslims are evil or terrorists. They'd make a clear distinction between dangerous Islamic fundamentalists who are committed to war and destruction and innocent civilians who are devoted followers of peaceful interpretations of Islam. 99% of US Marines would help an old lady cross the street, open a door for a woman, coach a little league team, serve the community, donate to charity, and generally be the type of citizen most civilized people would be proud to have in their community.

I'm not suprised that among active marines there is a substantial # of kids who would be more loyal to a fellow marine than to a civilian presumably killed by accident. I agree it's a problem and am glad to see our leadership adressing it. I know you don't think the Taliban or Al Qaeda are polling their troops as to the treatment of US soldiers in custody ... right? I do agree that it is appropriate and expected to hold the US troops to a MUCH higher standard. And unfortunately, there is probably 1% of US Marines who fall well short of that standard ... and some of that 1% might even be considered to be genuinely evil people who are no better than the Taliban/AQ leadership.

Likewise, I'm not suprised at the #'s of military who consider the treatment of noncombatants to be importan ... nor am I suprised that the life of a fellow soldier would take precident over the civil liberties of an enemy.

I'm always very careful in my interpretation of polls like that because you and I may have very different opinions of the word 'torture'. By the same token, the Marines are the US ground-pounders. They are trained and 'brainwashed' to fulfill a mission that we entrust the leadership we elect will carefully plan for and execute. The function of the Marines is to kill enemy combatants with as few casualties to their units as possible ... and they are totally prepared and devoted to completing that mission.

I am in no way endorsing the abuse or torture of anybody. I believe enemy POW's should be treated at least to the standard of US penal codes. IMO, that would more than conform to the G.C. to or any reasonable international standard. I am trying to convey the message that a. There is a fundamental difference between the Taliban/AQ and the role of the US Marines in any combat scenario. b. The # of US Marines involved in intentional civilian murder is miniscule ... but still unacceptable and the US has a method (albeit not always super-efficient) to ensure offenders of human rights are held accountable and punished. and c. In general, US Marines are 'good guys' ... Taliban/AQ members are 'bad guys' ... I do not mean the average Afghani/Iraqi, who will ally with whichever side provides the fundamentals of existence to them ... I mean the fundamental, ideologically driven extremist who shares the vision of OBL and the other acknowledged terrorist leaders who target civilians and endorse 9/11 type (and Spanish, and British, and German terror) attacks on civilians. Those are the people the US (and the rest of the civilized world, whether you believe it or not) are at war with and to whom the US military (led by the Marines) are devoted to stopping.

As for 'many of the US Marines being reluctant to leap over the higher bar' we both agree must exist for them ... You (we, the us govt, the UN, the media, etc) send them a mixed message. We tell our Marines that they are to be perfectly trained killing machines ready to fight who they are told by their leadership with almost blind obedience ... yet we want them to able to give honest, accurate answers to morally challenging questions that are posed out of the direct threat of danger and oppose the training they have received.

I also agree that you (we, gov't, the UN, media) need to decide what you expect from the US military, and how you expect them to deliver it ... and tell the people who are at the wheel of the most powerful, best trained military force that has ever existed. As a leader once said 'to whom much is given, much is expected' ... high expectations are fine, but they need to be very well (and narrowly) defined.

[Praxius]

Quote by: Derach Prax - I respect and appreciate your opinion .... but it's wrong. If you want to get a better understanding about what 99% of US Marines value and how they act and who they kill, spend some time with them and don't be so quick to generalized based on (often) biased media reporting.

Hey I'm just reflecting here..... if you don't like quick generalizations, then don't do it yourself. Oh.... and that 99%.... I don't think that's accurate.

If you don't want a better understanding, that's fine too, but realize that your opinion is bourne from a great deal of ignorance mixed with just enough misinformation to paint a very inaccurate picture in your head of US Marines.

I think the ignorance lies in with you actually thinking this is what I feel overall of the marines..... I was being Devils Advocate here.... one side views one thing, while the other side views a different thing.... I'm just trying to bridge the common thinking that both sides tend to hold..... which seems to prove true in this debate.

Trust me, I am not ignorant on the history of the Marines. I've studied them way back when they were first put together in 1775. At the same time I have also been gathering my knowlege on Islam and how it was originated.... recently I have been catching up on the Taliban and the El' Tacos.

In other words, if you don't like generalizations, then don't generalize...... nothing more, nothing less.

[Derach]

Prax - you are the one that is generalizing ... comparing Marines to the Taliban or Al Qaeda ... I pointed out that not only do they differ in their stated purposes ... they differ in their modes of operation ... they differ in their individual actions.

Now you kinda backed off and said you were playing Devil's Advocate ... so I take it you know that there are monumental differences between the Marines and those other organizations, but maybe you're trying to represent a different POV (because sometimes Marines act abhorrently on the same level as some of the terrorists they are fighting ... which I contend happens, but at a rate of less than 1% ... which nobody has been able to dispute ... despite some quotes of other statistics that are not related to direct 'terrorist' behavior by Marines). Do I have that about right?

I appreciate that you have studied the origins of the Marines and their history (as well as that of the Taliban) ... There is great value in that, but I would suggest that getting to know some individuals on a personal level will give you a far keener insight as to what type of behavior you could expect (and what his motivations for that behavior would be) than learning from books and video. I've been lucky enough to have gotten to know numerous active and retired military personnel ... and several Marines .... When's the last time you sat down with one and asked him about the perception of their being 'butchers'? I've had that opportunity and got quite an interesting answer. I come away believing what I said to be true ... There is no validity in comparing US Marines (despite some isolated incedents to the contrary) to Tbn/AQ. I feel compelled to rebuke anyone suggesting otherwise ... playing Devil's Advocate, or not.

[Praxius]

I imagine very well that if I met face to face with some Marines, I would see that they're great people, and many are..... I'm talking about the organization as a whole, much as the Taliban.... which I bet if you actually had the chance to talk to one of them, you'd see they're just the same, but have different beliefs.

Most, if not all of the people who have been taken hostage by insurgants and were later released, all have said they were treated very well by their captures and had time to get to know them and their reasons for what they are doing. The killing is something they do based on their extreme views of their religion.

All of the hostages I have seen turned free, all said they don't want to see death put towards their captures (The insurgants caught anyways)

From what I have seen and researched myself in regards to prisoner treatment, the Taliban have been far kinder.... at least up until their deaths.

[Sugar]

Quote by: Derach ooh Praxius ... you could say whatever you want about Marines ... but you'd be wrong if you called them butchers or tried in any way to compare their battlefield ethics with that of the Taliban or Al Qaeda. and I'd be REAL careful about saying it directly, in person, to an actual Marine.

There are no ethics in the battle field. Its the survival of the fittest and you've got to be the best and use any tatics to survive.

[Praxius]

.....Which is pretty much all they are trying to do at this point.

[pikatore]

Quote by: medi How do you think taliban operate? They are a bunch of butchers ready to kill anything that moves. So no question of believing a talibal commander.

The Taliban is fighting for what it belives in, much like the US. It resorts to sneaky tactics because it HAS to in order to survive.

They aren't evil. That is an ignorant thing to say.

[Derach]

When you believe in repression, gaining political power through murder, destroying national treasures on religious grounds, denying 1/2 the population basic human rights, using civilians as living bombs to attack the enemy (and other innocent civilians), public beheadings, denial of a free press ....

then I think it's fair to categorize you as 'evil'

[Praxius]

Quote by: Derach When you believe in repression, gaining political power through murder, destroying national treasures on religious grounds, denying 1/2 the population basic human rights, using civilians as living bombs to attack the enemy (and other innocent civilians), public beheadings, denial of a free press .... then I think it's fair to categorize you as 'evil'

That's your point of view, and I know that your country has done a few of the above in the past..... the really evil thing is when you try to hide it or lie about it.

The Japanese used to use Kamakazis..... do you considder them evil? A good chunk of your constitution has been screwed because of Bush and his Patiot Act.... would that be considdered evil?

Public Beheadings? That can easily fall under the same category as your executions in Gas Chambers, Electric Chairs, Leathal Injection, and throwing it on TV..... is that Evil?

Gaining Political Power through Murder? JFK anyone?? How about his brother?

Repression? What's all your blue collar, homeless and those in low income housing, ghettos, etc. going through right now? They're being beaten into a system that keeps them under the thumbs of the rich. They can't get by, so they turn to crime to get what they need to survive.... and then they get arrested or shot, and there you have it..... an easy solution to whiping out the poverity without having to give any assistance..... either that or promise them lots of money and education in the military, then get sent off to Iraq and if your lucky enough to survive getting back home, you may get some of that money, and some of that education. If your wounded.... well I've already heard plenty about the dispicable treatment and support your government is giving your War Widdows and Wounded Soldiers......

Sorry there, but although it's a different Mirror, it's still the same image.

[pikatore]

Quote by: Derach then I think it's fair to categorize you as 'evil'

Praxius basically said what I would have.

You need to pull your head out of the American soil and have a look around.

The US is not a world benchmark is peace and justice, and what is ironic is how it boasts of being that very thing.

Get out for a while. Do some travelling. Your perspective will change BIG TIME, for the better.

[Derach]

interesting (if a bit ignorant) responses. As for my personal travels, My citizenship is recognized by the US, Canada, and Italy. I have traveled extensively throughout North America and Europe and have lived in Europe for nearly 20 yrs. I wouldn't raise my family anywhere but in the USA for a million reasons (not the least of which is the freedom and opportunity to make a living). I admit, I have never been exposed to much of Taliban/Al Qaeda society (you guys?) ... but there is AMPLE evidence of what the Taliban did to Afghanistan. For you to compare the 'Bush regime' (all 8 yrs of it ... to which he was elected, and from which he could have been impeached) to the Taliban/AQ is ludicrous, ignorant, disingenuous, and dishonest (as I don't believe either of you have lived in or worked in both cultures to make any more of an educated opinion about it than can I ... who has lived and worked in one of those cultures for quite some time). Both Prax and Pikatore, I have made a living in 3 separate countries and paid taxes to the same, and I'll tell you without a shadow of a doubt that the US is hands down, no comparison the fairest, most politically accessible, secure (not just bodily, which it is, but financially) country I've ever dealt with. I have known and worked for many military people from all 3 countries, and without an exception, they are all fine men anyone would be proud to have in their families. US Marines are a different breed. They are not like any human beings on the planet ... like I said 99% of them I would trust with my children. But the bad ones are capable of being unbelievably bad. I can only hope that whatever country and society you choose to raise your family can give you the freedom and potential for prosperity that the US has given to me. If that country winds up being a country led by Taliban or Al Qaeda leadership, you come on back here and post how wonderful all the military personnel (that haven't blown themselves up yet) from those places are. Until then, your opinion really has no more bearing than mine (in fact, to the best of my experience, much less). BTW ... How long have you guys lived or worked in the US?


Another question of two for the great Taliban defenders ... how many Kosovo Muslims did the Taliban put up? How much help are they giving to the environmental catastrophe at Chernobyl? How many Taliban volunteers or servicmen are helping to this day recover from the Tsunami of Christmas, 2004? How many foreign students are the Taliban sponsoring to study abroad?

You guys are ridiculous.

[Derach]

Prax - You've been exposed to too much American cinema

[deepk]

Quote by: Derach US Marines are in no way comperable to the Taliban or Al Qaeda and you need look no further than each's mission statement for proof. The Marines are sworn to uphold the law and constitution and to obey their orders so long as they do not break some basic human right tenents. The fact that a few of these men have broken that vow is HUGELY different than the Taliban and Al Qaeda who are following there mission statment by resorting to the acts you allude to having happened in viet nam. It's the status quo for them ... it's the exception to the rule (and harshly punished) when it happens to the Marines. There really is no comparison

Yes they are in no way comparable to the Taliban/Al Qaeda. :confused: They are experts in ruining a prosperous country :( They are masters of destruction and they are the most feared ones.:eek: