Deadly shooting at US university

[Chris]

Quote by: brien I don't think I was the first to mention it. Please check post # 73. But it is relevant in terms of what the media does and does not report to us.

OK but those media stories are 5 years old. If you care to start a new thread about media non-reporting complete with a Newsmax link, in Politics, or maybe MISC that is fine. You should also be able to dig up those archived stories.

This guy was effectively stopped with guns too, the cops surrounded him and he took his own life.

[The Decider]

Quote by: ZNFYRH Let's stop the political bullshit and get back to the topic...

Can you just make your point without lecturing others on what is "on topic" or "off topic?" This was the worst shooting spree in American history. It involved firearms. Topics related to firearms in shootings sprees are all relevant, whether political or not.

Quote by: ZNFYRH And for you types that need to stand on a soap box about guns, a non-citizen with a green card can purchase a firearm in Virginia. That's how this kid got a gun. At least one of them was legally his.

Ah, now you sound "political" by chastising gun-control proponents.

[The Decider]

Quote by: brien Nope. The campus had a strict policy of "no guns" on campus. If some members of the students or faculty had been armed, it might have prevented some deaths. And besides, if the were absolutely no guns at all, the guy could have used the favorite method in the Middle East and strapped a bomb to himself and could have possibly blown more than 32 people away. The calls for gun control are merely a knee jerk emotional reaction that has no bearing upon the criminal activity of those bent upon killing themselves and taking others with them.

Brien, why do shooting sprees by jilted lovers and bullied kids and mentally deranged misfits happen with such regularity on American school campuses and work places and not in other First World nations? If, as you claim, strict gun control would not deter a mass murderer from using a bomb, why haven't we seen a spate of suicide bombings by revenge seekers in places like Spain, Britain, Japan, or Australia? They do happen outside the US, but they are extremely rare. If we totalled the number of school and workplace shootings in America over the past decade, you'd easily be in the double digits.

So what makes America different? Why are people in America more prone to initiate mass shootings to avenge some love dispute, bullying, or other social problem?

[ZNFYRH]

Chris,

They don't know yet if there was a second gunman... or a first, depending on how you look at it.

They are awaiting confirmation that the bullets used in the first shooting came from the guns found on Cho in the second shootings.

What they also aren't focusing on is the number of injuries. 30+ have died so far, but the initial number was in the 20's. People died later due to injuries, and more are still in critical condition.

Sadly, being surrounded by police is what they think drove him to start shooting.

Which raises a question that none have yet asked...

The police isolated him to a specific building. He hadn't started shooting until after he knew the police were outside. I could be wrong, but that's how it appears based on current reports.

For a security force that people are accusing of incompetence, they seem to have isolated one person on a campus of 25,000+ spread over 100 buildings on 2,600 acres.

I did notice, also, the irony that he was stopped with a single shot.

brien,

They know for sure that one of his guns was purchased legally.

The Decider,

It's called "staying on topic." The gun ban issue is irrelevant in this. Of greater concern is that his school record containing evidence of disturbing behavior is not subject to the weapons screening background check. What should also be an issue of concern is his motivation for deciding to start taking lives.

The fact that, in this country where a citizen's right to legally purchase a firearm is Constitutionally protected, gun bans are an irrelevant derailing.

[ZNFYRH]

Quote by: The Decider Brien, why do shooting sprees by jilted lovers and bullied kids and mentally deranged misfits happen with such regularity on American school campuses and work places and not in other First World nations?

I'm calling you out on this one.

Please provide some evidenciary support of your statement.

[brien]

So what makes America different? Why are people in America more prone to initiate mass shootings to avenge some love dispute, bullying, or other social problem?

Decider, I don't know the answers to your questions. Perhaps we hear more about them because they happen in the USA? I suppose there could be any number of reasons. I just know that making "guns laws" more restrictive doesn't solve the problem since it is people that kill others, not the guns. We really can't derail this thread into a "gun law" discussion.

[The Decider]

Quote by: ZNFYRH The Decider, It's called "staying on topic." The gun ban issue is irrelevant in this. Of greater concern is that his school record containing evidence of disturbing behavior is not subject to the weapons screening background check. What should also be an issue of concern is his motivation for deciding to start taking lives.

The gun ban issue is already a topic for discussion regarding this case in Washington and Virginia. Saying it is "off topic" is your opinion, not fact. You've made it known at least twice. I disagree and will continue to discuss the political angle of this story, as will others. The gunman's state of mind and other issues are also important and I'll follow them with interest. But they are NOT the only issues in this debate no matter how many lectures you deliver.

Quote by: ZNFYRH The fact that, in this country where a citizen's right to legally purchase a firearm is Constitutionally protected, gun bans are an irrelevant derailing.

Gun control is a current political issue. You obviously disagree with it. That's fine. But the US Supreme Court has the final say on these matters and until it rejects strict gun control outright, the subject is fair game within the parameters of the OP, of course.

[The Decider]

Quote by: ZNFYRH I'm calling you out on this one. Please provide some evidenciary support of your statement.

Your challenge is noted. I'll do some research and get back to you,

[ZNFYRH]

Quote by: The Decider the subject is fair game within the parameters of the OP, of course.

Hardly.

The better question is to ask if he would have committed the crime if he didn't have the guns.

The focus is not on the guns, but on how badly he wanted to kill.

[brien]

The better question is to ask if he would have committed the crime if he didn't have the guns

I don't think the gun issue is relevant here because he was determined to kill and would have found a way to commit the crime even without guns.

Perhaps it is fair to ask, why wasn't the campus prepared for such an attack? If a terrorist wanted to wreak havoc on the campus, would he have the same success? In light of 911, the campus should have had a plan in place to protect the student body against such violent attacks. Perhaps these are more germaine issues than the knee jerk reaction of calling for more gun control.

[Poledancer]

In the UK - Did some googling and found out that in 1996 in Dunblane ( Scotland) a man killed 16 people in a primary school with a handgun.

Don't know if any students have ever done it before. Seems to be knife crimes in the papers all the time with teenagers bringing knives to school etc.

However a couple of years ago, four suicide bombers blew themselves up on the underground trains in London and killed more than 50 people and then four more people tried to do it again a few weeks later.




Don't know how this helps the debate ?

As a British person, I am surprised that this latest shooting has made people think that more people should have guns, rather than fewer. But I do see the point that if everyone had had a gun at the college, the gun man would have been too scared of being shot at to do what he did.

I personally don't think it is that easy to make bombs that work and kill that many people, it is not as if you can practise setting bombs off on a regular basis, but you can practise shooting on a firing range every week.

[The Decider]

Quote by: ZNFYRH Hardly. The better question is to ask if he would have committed the crime if he didn't have the guns. The focus is not on the guns, but on how badly he wanted to kill.

Both firearms and the killer's motivation(s) are fairgame for discussion. I'm interested in both, including the points you've made. You're interested in the latter, exclusively (except when you want make a point about the 2nd Amendment--that's permissable ). To each his own. The thread OP has room for both angles of this topic, and I dare say others. Pikatore made no attempt at imposing limitations; that seems to be your self-appointed job.

[Chaossaber314]

Quote by: The Decider The whole gun control debate was already under discussion prior to the Iraq comment. Iraq has no gun control and similar atrocities every week; hence the relevance. Why didn't you play thread police at the first mention of politics on this thread? Or do only certain political topics meet with your approval?

Anyone who uses this incident to try and showcase their individual political ideology is totally in the wrong here. Feel free to show me where I said otherwise.

[Chaossaber314]

Quote by: Slevin57 Well that is all speculative at this point. Regardless 33 people are dead from this incident. The scary thing to me is that these types of events are unpreventable. All the security in the world will not prevent these things from happening.

I'm kind of curious about this myself because seeing as there was like an hour interval in between the first group of shootings and the second, why were there not armed campus police officers or local police present to prevent this? Why did he have time to kill this many? Particularly when the bulk of the deaths came from the second shooting.

[The Decider]

Quote by: Chaossaber314 Anyone who uses this incident to try and showcase their individual political ideology is totally in the wrong here. Feel free to show me where I said otherwise.

With pleasure. You never used the word "anyone." Your comments were directed toward Jose's "political point," and you never once indicated a problem with other political comments preceding and following Jose's. I'm glad you've corrected the inconsistency. Here's a recap of your exchange:

Jose: For a bit of perspective, imagine this happening five to ten times a day every day, Welcome to Iraq! my condolences to all families involved

Chaossaber314's replies: "This is neither the time nor the place....

It's an entirely different and unrelated situation and to use this tragedy to make a political point is ghoulish at best."

[Chaossaber314]

So because I address one instance that really stood out as inherently off-topic, I support every instance that was also off topic? Well, that's logical.

[The Decider]

Quote by: Chaossaber314 So because I address one instance that really stood out as inherently off-topic, I support every instance that was also off topic? Well, that's logical.

Not "support," just ignore....conveniently. That's the risk you take when playing thread policeman. Impartiality, or the appearance of the same, is vital in policework.

[Poledancer]

Didn't Michael Moore make a film about why this happens in the USA and not really in any other first world country?

[Chaossaber314]

Quote by: The Decider Not "support," just ignore....conveniently. That's the risk you take when playing thread policeman. Impartiality, or the appearance of the same, is vital in policework.

What are you on about now?

[The Decider]

Regarding the 9mm Glock:

Tech paid $571 for a 9 mm Glock 19 pistol just over a month ago, the owner of Roanoke Firearms told CNN Tuesday.

John Markell said Cho Seung-Hui was very low-key when he purchased the gun and 50 rounds of ammunition with a credit card in an "unremarkable" purchase.

Cho presented three forms of identification and state police conducted an instant background check that probably took about a minute, the store owner said. (Watch how quickly these guns can be fired, reloaded )

Shop owner: Virginia Tech shooter bought gun for $571 - CNN.com