Germany planning moon mission:

[Praxius]

Germany planning moon mission: report

The German government is considering a plan to launch its own unmanned mission to the moon, according to European media reports. The country would send a space probe to orbit the moon as soon as 2013, Walter Doellinger, the head of the country's space agency, the German Aerospace Centre or DLR (Deutsches Zentrum fur Luft und Raumfahrt eV), told the Financial Times newspaper on Thursday. Speaking to the newspaper's German edition — Financial Times Deutschland — after DLR made the proposal to Germany's parliament, Doellinger said that the aim was to show the world Germany was capable of the task, according to Agence-France Presse news service.

I find this very interesting, considdering I have a lot of doubt towards the US moon landing and if it really occured. An unmaned probe is the best option at this point due to the Van Allen radiation belt.... and a second opinion would be nice.

Perhaps this way, if the German probe does get to the moon, they could prove or disprove the previous US moon landing.

[Gods_Mercenary]

They obviously think that the mission is almost a surety, or they wouldn't be talking about national pride.

[Epistemologist]

Quote by: Praxius Perhaps this way, if the German probe does get to the moon, they could prove or disprove the previous US moon landing.

Not really, because Germany is a U.S. puppet. :)

Regardless, I don't think it's fake anyway...

[GHook93]

Quote by: Praxius I find this very interesting, considdering I have a lot of doubt towards the US moon landing and if it really occured.

Are you being serious? lol you really are a pot-head!

Perhaps this way, if the German probe does get to the moon, they could prove or disprove the previous US moon landing

Yea they are just a half century late on this. Makes sense to spend that kind of dough just to make a point. Maybe they should make a point to get an unmanned mission to another planet or another planet's moon! LOL what a waste. :eek:

[Derach]

Hard to believe people still thik the moon landing was faked ... Spend 1/2 hr investigating this hypothesis and any reasonable person can easily see that the moon landings are authentic and any conspiracy or hoax theories are very far-fetched indeed.

[Praxius]

Quote by: GHook93 Are you being serious? lol you really are a pot-head!

Pssh.... ignorant.

Hard to believe people still thik the moon landing was faked ... Spend 1/2 hr investigating this hypothesis and any reasonable person can easily see that the moon landings are authentic and any conspiracy or hoax theories are very far-fetched indeed.

Wow, a whole half hour? You must have gotten all the information that's out there pretty quick.

I agree..... as a photo editor and graphics designer, there were a few details that conspiritors held onto, which we're just uneducated assumptions.... but there was also a lot of details I looked into over the last few years that just don't add up.....

A few things to start, many of the photos and videos I have reviewed, have a lot of post-production evidence in them, and seeings how the re-editing occured a few decades ago with film, and lack of actual technology to edit well, I could easily pick up on a few things, like image placements, lighting angles, satelite images from earth super imposed over photos on the moon, and other factors that any other person without a background in this type of work wouldn't pick up on.

I did not prove nor disprove that the moon lander did or did not occure, but I have more doubt in it actually occuring then I do that it did.

This is why I think this would be interesting if Germany decided to go though with this. Whether or not someone thinks another country is another's puppet isn't much of a background for defense.

All this sounds like to me is a whole bunch of people defending their country on an equal ammount of lack of information as conspiritors have, just for the sake of possible denial that their country may have lied to them..... heaven forbid.... the US lied about something?

If you're gonna attack my point of view, at least have something to back up your claims.... you sound like bible bangers.

[GHook93]

Quote by: Praxius Pssh.... ignorant.

I'm ignorant? LOL Your the one that just brought up a conspiracy theory that Armstrong's walk on the moon was fake. LOL that is ignorance.

Calling you out on your stupidity, is called speaking the truth!

[Chris]

good holy mother of God we have already hashed this out over and over here

Go debate the conspiracy there.

[Praxius]

Quote by: GHook93 I'm ignorant? LOL Your the one that just brought up a conspiracy theory that Armstrong's walk on the moon was fake. LOL that is ignorance. Calling you out on your stupidity, is called speaking the truth!

Ignorance is believing something without proper evidence. I have at least an educated opinion on the matter..... you so far haven't even shown one peice of evidence for your defense. All you like to do is shoot your mouth off and name call.

"I'm right cuz I said so" mentality.

So instead of continuing through this off topic debate, how about you stick to the topic at hand. You want to argue the Moon landing, then go ahead and start a new thread.... this is in regards to Germany's plans, not your fake ass attempt.

[Derach]

Chris ... sorry if this is a re-hash of an old topic, but obviously it has not been resolved 100% ...

Praxius .... OK, I didn't spend 1/2 hr researching it, maybe more like 35 seconds, but I found someone with just a hair more credibility than you and your extensive expertise on doctoring photographs .... this guy is a planetary scientist and expert on small space objects and works for the Spacewatch Project that is in charge of plotting near-Earth astroids, and his 'hobby' is the historical impact of the space landings .... here's what he had to say ...

The Moon Landings Were NOT Faked

[Praxius]

Quote by: Derach Chris ... sorry if this is a re-hash of an old topic, but obviously it has not been resolved 100% ... Praxius .... OK, I didn't spend 1/2 hr researching it, maybe more like 35 seconds, but I found someone with just a hair more credibility than you and your extensive expertise on doctoring photographs .... this guy is a planetary scientist and expert on small space objects and works for the Spacewatch Project that is in charge of plotting near-Earth astroids, and his 'hobby' is the historical impact of the space landings .... here's what he had to say ... The Moon Landings Were NOT Faked

Yeah I seen the same site a few times before..... Besides the fact the site looks like it was done by someone who doesn't know anything about web design and looks very unproffessional, I agree with some of what is mentioned, but he's not a photographer, let alone an expert on film and it's abilities. Please don't mix up his experience with astrology and space exploration with photography experience.

#1 - Film does not wash out like Digital does. He said film is not a perfect recorder, yet film can capture much more detail, color and information then what a digital camera can.Digital Cameras are currently limited to a range between 0 - 255 in both Reds, Greens and Blues (By default, although if captured in CMYK, the values are different by the limitations are the same) When something is washed out, or too bright for a digital camera to capture, it marks it at 255 in all channels. Since digital capturing wasn't invented back then, and this was taken by a film camera, there is no way for the photo to wash out as he explains in some of the explinations.

If it was washed out, it wouldn't be so sharp in detail around the object and the 0-0-0 RGB black over top would not have been washed out.

#2 - The crop marks in the film photos are already imprinted into the film itself, due to the type of camera it was. Unless it was maniputlated by human hand, it can not have an image placed above them.... plain and simple..... it's film.

Like I said, I have more faith in it being fake then real, but I am not saying 100% that it was fake or real. There is a lot of questionable information out there that doesn't add up.

That, and I would trust an expert photographer/editor about details relating to photography, then a sceince wiz. I don't boast that I know everything about space, so unless he knows what he's talking about, he shouldn't spit off photography details he knows nothing about...... ie: trying to explain away details in a film photo with Digital photo information.

AAAaaaaaaaannyyywho....... could we get back to topic perhaps?

[Derach]

Praxius - So you're saying the moon landing is fake because (in your professional opinion) the photo's have been cropped and have faded or washed, therefore the only reasonable explanation for that is that NASA faked the whole thing? Wow - and we wonder how 12 people could find OJ not guilty ... The inability of an intelligent person to process evidence and make a sound judgment based on that evidence does not inspire confidence in our legal system (or human nature in general) ... I certainly hope my freedom never depends on your ability to make a sound judgment of fact based on presented evidence. Your logic explains how people could buy into Scientology, or dismiss evolution as a baseless theory (or the age of the unverse). To deny the significant accomplishment of the men and women who sacrificed (some their lives) for the goal of putting a man on the moon is quite offensive and such a claim should have overwhelming evidence before you make such absurd accusations of the space program.

like you said, on to the subject .... Germany has every right to pursue any technological achievment they feel is justified, but I agree that it seems wasteful to visit the moon to improve the world's perception of them .... now if they were going to explore the possibility of a launch platform there to reduce the cost of further space exploration, I would see the value in that. But it seems to be an expensive (and risky) sight-seeing trip to me.

[Praxius]

Quote by: Derach Praxius - So you're saying the moon landing is fake because (in your professional opinion) the photo's have been cropped and have faded or washed, therefore the only reasonable explanation for that is that NASA faked the whole thing? Wow - and we wonder how 12 people could find OJ not guilty ...

Normally, I don't pick out a person with an insult.... but your an idiot for trying to put words in my mouth. Did I mention anything about the entire photo being faded, or cropped? I mentioned crop marks, not the photo being cropped..... *smacks head* frig..... *Edited by Prax (Non-Relative)*

The inability of an intelligent person to process evidence and make a sound judgment based on that evidence does not inspire confidence in our legal system (or human nature in general) ... I certainly hope my freedom never depends on your ability to make a sound judgment of fact based on presented evidence. Your logic explains how people could buy into Scientology, or dismiss evolution as a baseless theory (or the age of the unverse).

*Edited by Prax (Non-Relative)*

I have shown evidence, I have explained evidence, I even debunked your precious high-tech web link you supplied with example, and what do you do? The same thing any typical sheep following, Gun-Ho "United States" wannabe...... show no decent evidence, don't bother to explain your reasoning, and go about with unrelated coments. What does this have to do with the legal system, or OJ?

To deny the significant accomplishment of the men and women who sacrificed (some their lives) for the goal of putting a man on the moon is quite offensive and such a claim should have overwhelming evidence before you make such absurd accusations of the space program.

You're space program was a distraction from your failures in Vietnam and came at the peak of the protests. My evidence and my opinion isn't just based on photos and their chances of being manipulated, and unlike you, I spent more then 30 seconds delving into this topic, so unless you spend a bit more time to educate yourself on the topic (That isn't even related to the orignal thread, yet again.) don't bother to debate it, because you clearly don't have any knowlege as to what's going on...... or you would have brought a better link then that amature web site.

like you said, on to the subject .... Germany has every right to pursue any technological achievment they feel is justified, but I agree that it seems wasteful to visit the moon to improve the world's perception of them .... now if they were going to explore the possibility of a launch platform there to reduce the cost of further space exploration, I would see the value in that. But it seems to be an expensive (and risky) sight-seeing trip to me.

Fair enough. But their space exploration is a bit limited compared to other countries.... if they plan on landing on another planet, it is logical to test their technology on a closer planetary object, before proceeding further in their advancements.

[GHook93]

Quote by: Praxius Ignorance is believing something without proper evidence. I have at least an educated opinion on the matter..... you so far haven't even shown one peice of evidence for your defense. All you like to do is shoot your mouth off and name call. "I'm right cuz I said so" mentality. So instead of continuing through this off topic debate, how about you stick to the topic at hand. You want to argue the Moon landing, then go ahead and start a new thread.... this is in regards to Germany's plans, not your fake ass attempt.

I would have been glad to talk about the German attempt, but your the one that brought to the table the conspiracy theory. So do flip your lid, when your called out on it.

[Praxius]

It was a small tangent of my own opinion and was not ment to drag this off topic......

*Edited by Prax* (Non-relative)

[Derach]

Prax - to stay on topic ... Germany's attempt is a poorly vieled attempt to break the final link to that 'Hollocaust' so many people seem to 'think' happened some 60 yrs ago. Obviously, those faded pictures of emaciated Jews were faked. Hopefully, when they finally become the first men to walk on the moon, not only can they find indisputible evidence that the 'work camps' of WWII were educational facilities rather than gas chambers, they will also find the remains of the Lindbergh baby and Elvis' lost CD's.

Hook's right - YOU opened this can of worms.

some things don't justify more than 30 seconds of research ... and anybody that thinks the moon landings were faked has NO business making judgments on anybody's sanity.

[Praxius]

Quote by: Derach some things don't justify more than 30 seconds of research ... and anybody that thinks the moon landings were faked has NO business making judgments on anybody's sanity.

It's quite hypocritical that you're allowed to judge someone's sanity if they have an opposing view on something who actually looked into something for more then 30 seconds.

FFS.... I said I have my doubts.... for the last 15th friggin time. I never said one way or another.... I just said I have some skeptism about some of the information supplied, from my own educated opinion on the material.

The moon landing, for the most part of my life, I believed 100% happened. I had no reason to doubt it..... then a few people I know brought up some good points (Many were easily debunked by myself as being true)

I decided to look into it, I took a few days/weeks on and off to look at some of the material myself, I examined hi-rez photos supplied from the landing, and I used some of my own techniques to test a few things out, and to be perfectly honest, as I have been here.... some things do not add up. Some of the explinations do not fit the situation at hand for some of the material.

I went from 100% believing it.... to about 50/50.

What I was trying to get at, was as you know, there are others out there who believe 100% that it happened, and 100% that it didn't..... I was trying to say that with an additional landing on the moon from a different country at a different time in life, with newer technology, one way or another, this might prove if it occured or not.

That is all I was trying to get at...... cripes!

[5010]

"the aim was to show the world Germany was capable of the task"

This is basically the same reason the US claimed for the moon landings. I think enough has been learned about the moon and the costs to get there to determine conclusively that there is no economic benefit with existing tech. Otherwise, I think we'd see a different aim than 'prove we can'.

As for moon landing doubts. If the imagery were faked, then they were very lucky. Consider that the best they could go on was clementine with a resolution of 200m. More recently, ESA used imagery from SMART-1, which at best improves the resolution to 40m. They correlated the imagery with the panoramic 'ground truth' provided by the landings and found them to be consistent. That at least supports the evidence of landings, although it doesn't say anything about whether or not the landings were manned. I am convinced enough on the dust trajectories from the Apollo video footage.

According to this report
The DLR is confident that within four years, the Moon can be completely mapped to a resolution of one metre per pixel. Until now, only 18% of the Moon has been mapped.

But what if someday someone images the site to 1mm resolution and photographs footprints? There still would be room for conspiracy. Just claim that the latest orbiter, lander, rover, whatever are fakes too, especially when current graphics tech makes it cheaper to fake expensive missions so that those in on it can pocket the difference and the rest of us are dazzled by the eye candy and everyone is happy.

[Mozart1220]

Quote by: Praxius Germany planning moon mission: report I find this very interesting, considdering I have a lot of doubt towards the US moon landing and if it really occured. An unmaned probe is the best option at this point due to the Van Allen radiation belt.... and a second opinion would be nice. Perhaps this way, if the German probe does get to the moon, they could prove or disprove the previous US moon landing.

The moon landing occurred. There is only one sad old man that gets on the Discovery Channel once in a while saying otherwise, and his science is as faulty as his hearing aid.

As for Germany going to the moon, they already did it. It was called Mercury, Gemini, and Apollo.


Where do you think Werner Von Braun and 90% of the other "rocket scientists" that got us to the moon came from?


BTW, the Van Allen Belt isn't a "Radiation Belt" it's the Earth magnetic field. And the radiation outside it isn't so great that a crew couldn't survive in a semi-shielded spacecraft for a few days. They wouldn't need an inch of lead or six inches of water. It's not a nuke going off outside.

Private citizens tracked the spacecraft with amature gear and small telescopes. At certain times, it is said that with a moderate telescope, you could see the "halo" of ice crystals after a waste water dump.


Besides, three guys died on the pad in an attempt tofake a moon shot? Later, Apollo 13 nearly ended the program. Why fake that?


There is a book called "Bad Astronomy" by Philip Plait were he debunkes every myth about the faked Moon landing. He explains it so even an old high school grad like me can comprehend it. He also taks about alot of other things too, it's a great book!

[Chris]

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