Zundel jailed five years for Holocaust denial:

[Praxius]

Zundel jailed five years for Holocaust denial

MANNHEIM, Germany - Far-right activist Ernst Zundel was convicted of 14 counts of incitement Thursday for Holocaust denial and sentenced to the maximum five years in prison. The 67-year-old, who was deported from Canada in 2005, was accused of years of anti-Semitic activities, including denying the Holocaust a crime in Germany in documents and on the Internet. Zundel and his supporters have argued that he is a peaceful campaigner denied his right to free speech. Zundel has been a prominent white supremacist and Holocaust denier since the 1970s.

...."You might as well argue that the sun rises in the west," Grossmann said when asking that Zundel be given the maximum sentence. "But you cannot change that the Holocaust has been proven."

I understand the fact that some can be offended by people saying they don't believe the Holocaust occured, etc..... but isn't there something morally wrong by sending someone to jail for their own personal opinions? I believe the Holocaust did occur, but I still don't think it's right for governments to jail someone based on words and their opinions.

It's like the same thing as "Believe what we tell you, or goto jail"

If the majority of the world believes that the Holocaust did occur and there has been plenty of evidence, video, witnesses, etc... then what's the big deal if you got a couple of conspirators saying that it didn't?

What's the difference between someone saying they believe the Holocaust never happened, and someone saying they believe Area 51 exists? Or the WTC buildings were bombed and covered up? Or the Moon landing??

Sure the obvious difference is the Holocaust is in regards to millions of Jews being killed, but generally..... they're the same thing.

[notworthabean]

no sensibel person doesn't believe the holocaust happened. that said the reason for make denial illegeal in those cournties is part of a borader effort to supress right wing groups which are going to be a constant thorn in europes side.

[The Bacon Guy]

Another example in a worrying trend of suppression of politically incorrect speech in the Western world. If unpopular opinions are currently being arbitrarily prohibited, how long before the government starts dictating what political parties are acceptable? It's already started in Britain with the persecution of the BNP.

[arielmessenger]

is Europe's first democratic venture into 1984 though police political coercion. But even the name of the crime is false: one can be a Holocaust denier by simply questioning the numbers of victims killed as if only by agreement with the 6 million Jews killed qualifies one as a Holocaust acceptor.

Same doublespeak with the "crime" of "anti-Semitism", which is being pushed by Ashkenazi Jews primarily who themselves have hardly a trace of Semitic blood in them, being central European religious converts to Judaism.

If we want to retain our freedom to think and speak our minds without fear of reprisals, we had best face the fact that America and Europe are being highly manipulated by Jewish lobbyists in each country.

[notworthabean]

all the far right parites in europe,esp westenr europe, are supresed by the center/liberal groups as best they can. after WWII can you blame them?

[notworthabean]

Quote by: arielmessenger is Europe's first democratic venture into 1984 though police political coercion. But even the name of the crime is false: one can be a Holocaust denier by simply questioning the numbers of victims killed as if only by agreement with the 6 million Jews killed qualifies one as a Holocaust acceptor. Same doublespeak with the "crime" of "anti-Semitism", which is being pushed by Ashkenazi Jews primarily who themselves have hardly a trace of Semitic blood in them, being central European religious converts to Judaism. If we want to retain our freedom to think and speak our minds without fear of reprisals, we had best face the fact that America and Europe are being highly manipulated by Jewish lobbyists in each country.

1) your denying the extent-which is not really in doubt

2) thats just a story made up by anti-zionsits capitlising on the purposted conversion of a central asian kingdom, they were jews in eureop well proceding those converts

3) thier are lobbyists of all sorts maniupalting our govenrments, jews are not the most prevalent.

[The Bacon Guy]

Quote by: bean all the far right parites in europe,esp westenr europe, are supresed by the center/liberal groups as best they can. after WWII can you blame them?

Their reaction to WW2 is to suppress free speech and imprison people for their political ideologies? Yeah, Hitler never did that.

[notworthabean]

Quote by: The Bacon Guy Their reaction to WW2 is to suppress free speech and imprison people for their political ideologies? Yeah, Hitler never did that.

i think their point is to avoid a ultra nationalist like hitler who will plunge the contient into another costly war. its an erie contrast really.

our far right wing looneys want to be left alone

thier far right wing looneys want to run everything.

makes me happy to be american.

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: notworthabean makes me happy to be american.

Yeah, sure. Here in America the Constitution guarantees that we have freedom of speech. As long as you are in a freespeech zone, of course.

[Gods_Mercenary]

Inddeed, opinions can't be illegal, you can't help it if you believe something.

[notworthabean]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary Inddeed, opinions can't be illegal, you can't help it if you believe something.

well if its holocaust denial you could open a history book and learn your wrong.

[Gods_Mercenary]

History books can be interpreted as propoganda of the "Jewish conspiracy", Again, you can't help it if you have a messed up viewpoint.

[notworthabean]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary History books can be interpreted as propoganda of the "Jewish conspiracy", Again, you can't help it if you have a messed up viewpoint.

sure you can, plus justhaving an opinion does not require its expression. you make it sound liek holocaust deniers have some kind of mental illness.

[Gods_Mercenary]

Maybe they do, anyway, it's called free speech, it's supposed to be an unconditional value of western civilization, we've no right to talk to muslim countries about their violations of what we percieve as rights when we don't stick to them ourselves.

[Praxius]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary History books can be interpreted as propoganda of the "Jewish conspiracy", Again, you can't help it if you have a messed up viewpoint.

History is written by the victors.

[notworthabean]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary Maybe they do, anyway, it's called free speech, it's supposed to be an unconditional value of western civilization, we've no right to talk to muslim countries about their violations of what we percieve as rights when we don't stick to them ourselves.

I agree they are entitled to be (for lack of a better word) idiots, and I wouldn't advoate doing it in America, but for the europeans it seems to make sense. I personally think he should be put on air with eli wesiel and allowed to debate it nationally.

[arielmessenger]

Quote by: notworthabean 1) your denying the extent-which is not really in doubt 2) thats just a story made up by anti-zionsits capitlising on the purposted conversion of a central asian kingdom, they were jews in eureop well proceding those converts 3) thier are lobbyists of all sorts maniupalting our govenrments, jews are not the most prevalent.

What is a Holocaust Denier? Is it a person who denies there ever was a Jewish Holocaust? Or is it a person who denies the "extent-which is not really in doubt" when it obviously is in doubt, that doubt fueled by the imprisonment of an otherwise well respected WW II historian, doubt fueled by World Almanac figures that were changed after they showed no 6 million Jewish disappearances, doubts raised by reliance on German army figures when it is common knowledge army officers historically and worldwide are highly prone to inflate figures of enemies killed to satisfy superiors. And finally, why the heavy-handed jackboot approach to those who don't believe the existing reports are accurate? Who's got something they don't want to be looked at closely?

And the Ashkenazi FACT? You obviously do not know your Jewish history. 20% of all Jews are Sephardic Jews with real Semitic ancestry to the Holy Land. Sephardic Jews were in Spain and many were exiled into European countries to intermarry with Ashkenazi Jews. But the vast majority of Jews at 80% now it is claimed but in 1962 it was at 92%. That 80% of all Jewry is Ashkenazi which can be traced to Turko-Slav Khazar kingdom converts to Judaism in the 8th Century. I know this for a FACT because I had my dna tested for Jewish ancestry through my mother's side of our family and it came back showing ancestry in Poland, Ukraine, Austria-Hungary, Netherlands, and Uzbekistan, which is in the heart of the old Khazar kingdom. Not a single Semitic gene from the Middle East shows up.

That Ashkenazis pushed for and got Israel given to Jews when they were merely religious converts is morally equivalent to Chinese Muslims demanding Saudi Arabia and Mecca as their "homeland" and getting it through Western power politics.

As for Jewish lobby power, in the U.S, AIPAC is the second most powerful lobby behind AARP and ahead of NRA. Read Jimmy Carter and the two professors blacklisted now by the Jewish lobbyists for telling it like it is.

[jose]

Did this person commit a crime INSIDE Germany,or was he just sent there as Germany has this crime on it´s books.?

Will the time he has been held awaiting trial ( 4 years ) be counted towards his sentence?

[notworthabean]

What is a Holocaust Denier? Is it a person who denies there ever was a Jewish Holocaust? Or is it a person who denies the "extent-which is not really in doubt" when it obviously is in doubt, that doubt fueled by the imprisonment of an otherwise well respected WW II historian, doubt fueled by World Almanac figures that were changed after they showed no 6 million Jewish disappearances, doubts raised by reliance on German army figures when it is common knowledge army officers historically and worldwide are highly prone to inflate figures of enemies killed to satisfy superiors. And finally, why the heavy-handed jackboot approach to those who don't believe the existing reports are accurate? Who's got something they don't want to be looked at closely?

a denier is someone who greatly doubts the extent of the holocaust. i doubt its exactly 6 millions, maybe it was 5.5 milion and chage or maybe 6.13 but its close. and no doubt does not mean its not fully known, there are people who doubt gravity, that doesn't mean its no known.

as for the reliance on german figures. they were not inflating the numbers killed because that wasn't their goal, they were recording the peoel killed they have long lists of names/numbers of those in the camps, and what happend to them. not to mention you have whole communites of jews destroyed.

And the Ashkenazi FACT? You obviously do not know your Jewish history. 20% of all Jews are Sephardic Jews with real Semitic ancestry to the Holy Land. Sephardic Jews were in Spain and many were exiled into European countries to intermarry with Ashkenazi Jews. But the vast majority of Jews at 80% now it is claimed but in 1962 it was at 92%. That 80% of all Jewry is Ashkenazi which can be traced to Turko-Slav Khazar kingdom converts to Judaism in the 8th Century. I know this for a FACT because I had my dna tested for Jewish ancestry through my mother's side of our family and it came back showing ancestry in Poland, Ukraine, Austria-Hungary, Netherlands, and Uzbekistan, which is in the heart of the old Khazar kingdom. Not a single Semitic gene from the Middle East shows up.

how would DNA show that? the way its been determiend whether a group of people are jewish or not is a genetic marker that happens in coheniam and travels with the y chromosome. thus if a certian perctange of men have this marker (i forget the percenage) then a group of people is of jewish desent. the ashkenazi fit this profile. it would be very diffiuclt, if not impoossible, to test your DNA for "semetic genes" (whatever that means).

That Ashkenazis pushed for and got Israel given to Jews when they were merely religious converts is morally equivalent to Chinese Muslims demanding Saudi Arabia and Mecca as their "homeland" and getting it through Western power politics.

Thats not a bad idea, they'd probably be less troublsome then the saudis.

As for Jewish lobby power, in the U.S, AIPAC is the second most powerful lobby behind AARP and ahead of NRA. Read Jimmy Carter and the two professors blacklisted now by the Jewish lobbyists for telling it like it is.

1) AIPAC is powerful in the specific area it talks about, just like NRA and AARP In their areas

2) Jimmy carter isn't "black listed" he is mocked/laughed at/called biased/criticzied, but its all well desreved

3) those professors weren't black listed either, and I read the article. its very unimpressive.

regardless-it shouldn't be a crime to be wrong in this way, but I can understand the europeans feeling that they need to supress the far right, consideing their history and all.

jose-i believe he was in germany.

[arielmessenger]

are so imbred following strict prohibition against intermarriage with other European Gentiles that Ashkenazi genes are used as controls for human genetic research. There are several diseases specific to Ashkenazis. And of course, the Ashkenazi gene markers can tell with there's been significant infusion of Semitic genes from the Middle East. There has not been such as my dna test shows--my Ashkenazi ancestry only goes as far east as Uzbekistan. No Semitic blood markers.

So all Ashkenazis when they claim to be "Semites" are lying. And you do not address the immorality of Ashkenazis claiming Palestine from real Semitic indigenous peoples.

But I do see you admitting to AIPAC's influence which you previously denied.

And I got news for you re Jimmy Carter and the two profs..they are being listened to by many, many, many activists. Gone are the days when the Zionist lobby gets a free ride on America's shirttails without arousing bitter complaint from those who see the injustice inherent in the Zionist religious enterprise of Israel. Better hope Hillary wins next time around because if she doesn't, continuing U.S. support for Israelis over Palestinians will be seriously called into question and national debate. When you've gotten a well respected former U.S. President openly criticizing Israeli policies, the end of the Zionist love-affair between America and Israel is on the horizon..