Israel for first time gets Muslim minister

[ByaKya]

Quote by: notworthabean demography does not autmotaicly mean a change. just because you can produce more babies does not mean you autoamitly own everything.

Automatically no, but if the democracy is question doesnt allow a change ever, then its not a democracy.

If a country goes from 18 % arab, in israels case, to 30 %. Then by simply voting they can change the govenment.

In extreme cases, if one group becomes 60 or 70 % of the population and the "democracy" doesnt change to accomodate the wishes of the new majority, well then, you can take it from there

[notworthabean]

Quote by: ByaKya Automatically no, but if the democracy is question doesnt allow a change ever, then its not a democracy. If a country goes from 18 % arab, in israels case, to 30 %. Then by simply voting they can change the govenment. In extreme cases, if one group becomes 60 or 70 % of the population and the "democracy" doesnt change to accomodate the wishes of the new majority, well then, you can take it from there

then they either cease to be a majority or take it over-obviously.

[ByaKya]

Quote by: notworthabean then they either cease to be a majority or take it over-obviously.

i dont follow, are you saying if a state starts out with a certain majority, which feels a certain way and votes a certain way, and also has a minority that votes the opposite way most of the time.
then the minority can never assume control of the government, even when they become the majority and vote as they have always voted?

"take over" you mean what exactly? like democrats taking over congress as happens in democracies or arabs "taking over" the government of israel by force? im saying the former will happen in israel and any democracy.

[notworthabean]

Quote by: ByaKya i dont follow, are you saying if a state starts out with a certain majority, which feels a certain way and votes a certain way, and also has a minority that votes the opposite way most of the time. then the minority can never assume control of the government, even when they become the majority and vote as they have always voted? "take over" you mean what exactly? like democrats taking over congress as happens in democracies or arabs "taking over" the government of israel by force? im saying the former will happen in israel and any democracy.

it depends on the feelings of the groups torward sone another. if it is a freindly relatinship where by the two groups meld, then you have america, where being a "minority" is not that cirticla to most people, and ranks well below america in terms of loyalties, hence america does not have religous/civil wars. if however the group thats shrinking and the group that rising don't get a long you get serbia or lebanon where the shrinkign group in an effort to mantian thier country attemptto either kill or exile the minority. few countires are commited to "democracy " to the point of a sucidie pact.

[ByaKya]

Quote by: notworthabean it depends on the feelings of the groups torward sone another. if it is a freindly relatinship where by the two groups meld, then you have america, where being a "minority" is not that cirticla to most people, and ranks well below america in terms of loyalties, hence america does not have religous/civil wars. if however the group thats shrinking and the group that rising don't get a long you get serbia or lebanon where the shrinkign group in an effort to mantian thier country attemptto either kill or exile the minority. few countires are commited to "democracy " to the point of a sucidie pact.

ROFL. Whats a democracy if not a country of its people. if the people within a country change, then the politcial make up of the country changes.
if the change means some kind of "suicide" so be it, the only suicide you are talking about is political change.
Your idea of "suicide" is a zionist idea of what would happen if arabs gain the majority in israel. hence you are quite clearly as democratic minded as most zionists, im glad you cleared up and made obvious to everyone here your comtempt for democracy.
The only "democracy" in the middle east. ROFL.
As long as its jewish tho right? rofl. democracy my butt.
i assure you the best in yet to come when we see israel implode trying to figure out how to keep calling itself a democracy when the majority of the people are voting the zionist government out of office. excellent entertainment

[notworthabean]

Quote by: ByaKya ROFL. Whats a democracy if not a country of its people. if the people within a country change, then the politcial make up of the country changes. if the change means some kind of "suicide" so be it, the only suicide you are talking about is political change. Your idea of "suicide" is a zionist idea of what would happen if arabs gain the majority in israel. hence you are quite clearly as democratic minded as most zionists, im glad you cleared up and made obvious to everyone here your comtempt for democracy. The only "democracy" in the middle east. ROFL. As long as its jewish tho right? rofl. democracy my butt. i assure you the best in yet to come when we see israel implode trying to figure out how to keep calling itself a democracy when the majority of the people are voting the zionist government out of office. excellent entertainment

hmm I don't think you understand what I am getting at. I am not discussing my personal preferences to happen, I am discussing what happens historically. some countries (like America) are used to being multi ethnic with basic acceptance of an ideology the most important aspect of member of the nation, that makes it much easier for immigrants to join up with America while retaining at a lower level their religious/ethnic loyalties that diminish over the generations

In the old world nations are drawn on much firmer ethnic/religious lines. I could live in Germany all my life, I could speak German with a local accent, marry a German etc etc and I'd never be a German. Germans would notice immediately that I am not "German". that would be even harder if I wanted to maintain my religious beliefs. the same is true of England, France, etc. those countries exist as more then just a national boundary that exists to serve whatever group happens to make up 50+% of the population, it exists as the home of a nation, that of the French or the English, or whatever. thus if the French wake up one morning and realize their nation is becoming less French they will try to preserve that. as will and would most countries. And yes the same applies to Israel. There is little chance they will sit back and say “oh well we lost the baby wars, lets give control of the country to the people who want to drive us into the sea”. Yea chances are that will get rough to.

[ByaKya]

Quote by: notworthabean hmm I don't think you understand what I am getting at. I am not disucssing my personal preferences to happen, I am disucsisng what happesn historically. some countire es (like the us) are used to being multi ethnic with basic acceptance of an ideology the most imoprtant aspect of member of the nation, that makes it much easier for immiragnts to join up with america while reatiang at a lower level their religous/ethnic loyalties that dimmisn over the generatiosn in the old world natiosn are drawn on much firmer ethnic/religous lines. i could live in germany all my life, I could speak german with a local accent, marry a german etc etc and I'd never be a german. germans would notice immediatly that i am not "german". that would be even harder if I wanted to maintian my religous beeliefs. the same is true of england, france, etc. those countires exist as more then just a national boundry that exists to serve whatever group happesn to make up 50+% of the popuilation, ti exists as the home of a nation, that of the french or the english, or whatever. thus if the french wake up one morning and relieze their nation is becoming less french they will try to preserve that. as will and would most countries.

Wrong on all counts.
France extended "nationality" to even include algerians that werent even born nor ever lived in france as a way to intice them to let france keep algeria as part of their country, it failed, but france is a democracy and as such is a country of its people.
just like england. again, thats how democracies work
proove otherwise or move on. youre making up a totally unknown idea of what democracy is. Democracy in france , the us or england, isnt democracy of the "anglo-saxons:" or democracy of the "ethnic french"
or white protestants in the US.
you truely have a twisted understanding of democracy, such is the price of zionism.

[RickSp]

Given that the Israel cabinet has been lead by terrorists including Yitzhak Shamir, from the Lehi, better known as the Stern Gang, as well as Menachem Begin who led the Irgun in the terrorist bombing of the King David Hotel. And of course, the current President of Israel has been charged with the rape of at least two women. With this background any increased diversity in the Israeli cabinet is probably a good thing.

[notworthabean]

Quote by: ByaKya Wrong on all counts. France extended "nationality" to even include algerians that werent even born nor ever lived in france as a way to intice them to let france keep algeria as part of their country, it failed, but france is a democracy and as such is a country of its people. just like england. again, thats how democracies work proove otherwise or move on. youre making up a totally unknown idea of what democracy is. Democracy in france , the us or england, isnt democracy of the "anglo-saxons:" or democracy of the "ethnic french" or white protestants in the US. you truely have a twisted understanding of democracy, such is the price of zionism.

Membership in a nation in terms of true belonging and legal citizenship are two distinct things, if you don't understand this basic concept than your hopeless in understanding what I am talking about.

Also, by including America in that last bit you showed you didn't read my post and you’re essentially the only thing coming out of your mouth are byproducts of digestion.

[ByaKya]

Quote by: notworthabean Membership in a nation in terms of true belonging and legal citizenship are two distinct things, if you don't understand this basic concept than your hopeless in understanding what I am talking about. Also, by including America in that last bit you showed you didn't read my post and you’re essentially the only thing coming out of your mouth are byproducts of digestion.

citizenship is all that matters, period.
only treasonous acts or similar such actions where citizen is revoked can undue this.
There is no 'true american" or "true french" Only citizenship is requirment to be a true belonging or whatever term you just made up is.

[notworthabean]

Quote by: ByaKya citizenship is all that matters, period. only treasonous acts or similar such actions where citizen is revoked can undue this. There is no 'true american" or "true french" Only citizenship is requirment to be a true belonging or whatever term you just made up is.

1) please read my posts from now on, don't read just the first sentance and respond.

2) there IS such thing as a "real" french, or english or german etc. just liek there is a "real" Indian and chinnese nationality. Nationhood's existance transends legal statehood (look at the kurds). and statehood does not mean your a nation (look at iraq).

[GHook93]

Quote by: RickSp Given that the Israel cabinet has been lead by terrorists including Yitzhak Shamir, from the Lehi, better known as the Stern Gang, as well as Menachem Begin who led the Irgun in the terrorist bombing of the King David Hotel. And of course, the current President of Israel has been charged with the rape of at least two women. With this background any increased diversity in the Israeli cabinet is probably a good thing.

Rick,

Don't try to derail the thread. If your not going to add to it, then go away!

[RickSp]

Quote by: GHook93 Rick, Don't try to derail the thread. If your not going to add to it, then go away!

The thread is about the addition of a Muslim to the Israeli cabinet. My response was completely on topic. It addressed past and current Israeli cabinet members. The historic and current level of corruption and abuse in the Israeli government will indeed have a direct impact on whether Raleb Majadele, the new Muslim cabinet member, will have any possibility of being effective. Discussing the Israeli cabinet with no reference to its current and past problems is to discuss the topic completely out of context.

My comments are far more on topic than the discussion of the government of Lebanon that you have wandered off on.

Regarding the Israeli cabinet, another ex-cabinet member, former Justice Minister Haim Ramon, has been convicted of sexual harrassment today. It is one of several ongoing scandals involving cabinet officials.

The Ramon conviction comes amid a series of scandals involving Israeli leaders. Last week, the attorney general said he plans to indict President Moshe Katsav on charges of raping and sexually assaulting former female employees. Katsav has taken a leave of absence, and this week vacated his official residence in Jerusalem while he fights the charges. Authorities also have launched a criminal investigation into Olmert's role in the government's sale of a controlling interest in a bank in 2005, when he was finance minister. Investigators suspect Olmert tried to steer the bid in favor of a supporter. Tzahi Hanegbi, another prominent Kadima member, has been indicted on charges of fraud, bribery and perjury in connection with appointments he made as a minister.

Ex-Israeli Minister Is Convicted

[ByaKya]

Quote by: notworthabean 1) please read my posts from now on, don't read just the first sentance and respond. 2) there IS such thing as a "real" french, or english or german etc. just liek there is a "real" Indian and chinnese nationality. Nationhood's existance transends legal statehood (look at the kurds). and statehood does not mean your a nation (look at iraq).

in a democracy the citizen child of an immigrant, is equal in ALL respect to an ethnic member of the majority citizen of that country.
Are you saying otherwise? if not, its time to move on.
democracy changes depending on its people, if the people change the government once they attain majority, then thats how it must be. Otherwise your idea of democracy is a fake one.
this goes right to the point of your zionism, believing israel is a democracy, so long as its a jewish democracy. thats not a democracy, its a pseduo democracy.
its the same with the us, france or britian.
recently a mayor of london won the vote because of his muslim backers, he has taken a very anti-bliar line.
also in california, hispanic officals have been elected, in detroit and other cities, black mayors. in a democracy, it represents its PEOPLE. if the people change, then the countrys political leadership changes if thats what the PEOPLE want.
if the US becomes 40 % white, 40 % hispanic and 20 % blacks. non-white votes will control the government and all its policies to the extent that they would vote to make spanish as well as english an official language of the government, or have cuba join NATO.
thats a democracy

[ByaKya]

Quote by: RickSp The thread is about the addition of a Muslim to the Israeli cabinet. My response was completely on topic. It addressed past and current Israeli cabinet members. The historic and current level of corruption and abuse in the Israeli government will indeed have a direct impact on whether Raleb Majadele, the new Muslim cabinet member, will have any possibility of being effective. Discussing the Israeli cabinet with no reference to its current and past problems is to discuss the topic completely out of context. My comments are far more on topic than the discussion of the government of Lebanon that you have wandered off on. Regarding the Israeli cabinet, another ex-cabinet member, former Justice Minister Haim Ramon, has been convicted of sexual harrassment today. It is one of several ongoing scandals involving cabinet officials.Ex-Israeli Minister Is Convicted

Rick, would you just stop point out glaring problems with the so called "only democracy in the middle east"
youre making it all hard to keep the illusion together, its suppose to be the epitomy of down home democracy, right in the middle east !
its suppose to be our only reliable freind, the good guy, the moral country, the country of laws, why do you have to burst the bubble rick?
why bring facts and news items to a discussion about israel??!

[notworthabean]

Quote by: ByaKya in a democracy the citizen child of an immigrant, is equal in ALL respect to an ethnic member of the majority citizen of that country. Are you saying otherwise? if not, its time to move on.

see we are differing here on what we are talking about. You are discussing basic legal rights-which are indeed equal, while I am discussing actual membership in the nation. In Europe, and indeed most of the old world membership in the nation is gotten one way-birth, it is very hard to "become" English/french/german/whatever. I could no more become French or become Arab than I could become a computer screen.

democracy changes depending on its people, if the people change the government once they attain majority, then thats how it must be. Otherwise your idea of democracy is a fake one.

democracy is where all citizens gets to vote, that doesn’t' mean you have to let everyone who wants to become a citizens of your country become one.

this goes right to the point of your zionism, believing israel is a democracy, so long as its a jewish democracy. thats not a democracy, its a pseduo democracy.

Jews want Israel to remain a "Jewish country" because that’s what it was created for. that’s why Jews are allowed in automatically and all that. To put things in a perspective You'll understand, Israel’s majority right now doesn't want Israel to become a Muslim country, so they are determining who to let into the country based on that. see its all democratic.

its the same with the us, france or britian. recently a mayor of london won the vote because of his muslim backers, he has taken a very anti-bliar line.

that’s depressing

also in california, hispanic officals have been elected, in detroit and other cities, black mayors. in a democracy, it represents its PEOPLE. if the people change, then the countrys political leadership changes if thats what the PEOPLE want. if the US becomes 40 % white, 40 % hispanic and 20 % blacks. non-white votes will control the government and all its policies to the extent that they would vote to make spanish as well as english an official language of the government, or have cuba join NATO. thats a democracy

again America is not what I am talking about here, however looking at that several things pop up

1) it is not only whites who speak primarily English, blacks also mostly speak English, and I'd wager most second generation Hispanics do too.

2) Hispanics are not a voting bloc, they have differences like Cuban and Mexican etc. unless the communist gov't there falls theirs little chance Cuba is going on to nato

but again let me repeat-America is not what I am talking about, I am talking about the nation-states in Europe.

The thread is about the addition of a Muslim to the Israeli cabinet. My response was completely on topic. It addressed past and current Israeli cabinet members. The historic and current level of corruption and abuse in the Israeli government will indeed have a direct impact on whether Raleb Majadele, the new Muslim cabinet member, will have any possibility of being effective. Discussing the Israeli cabinet with no reference to its current and past problems is to discuss the topic completely out of context. My comments are far more on topic than the discussion of the government of Lebanon that you have wandered off on. Regarding the Israeli cabinet, another ex-cabinet member, former Justice Minister Haim Ramon, has been convicted of sexual harrassment today. It is one of several ongoing scandals involving cabinet officials.

Because of course the Muslim cabinet member will be a pinnacle of uncorrupted virtue. All politicians are the same, whether American, French, Israeli or Chinese.

[ByaKya]

Quote by: notworthabean see we are differing here on what we are talking about. You are discussing basic legal rights-which are indeed equal, while I am discussing actual membership in the nation. In Europe, and indeed most of the old world membership in the nation is gotten one way-birth, it is very hard to "become" English/french/german/whatever. I could no more become French or become Arab than I could become a computer screen.

thats irrelevant to citizenship and or voting and hence has no effect on the ability to change the country in any way they see fit.

democracy is where all citizens gets to vote, that doesn’t' mean you have to let everyone who wants to become a citizens of your country become one.

thats not what were talking about, democracy does mean the people of the country, no matter their ethnicity or religion decide who represents them in the country and decide what they want for the country

Jews want Israel to remain a "Jewish country" because that’s what it was created for. that’s why Jews are allowed in automatically and all that. To put things in a perspective You'll understand, Israel’s majority right now doesn't want Israel to become a Muslim country, so they are determining who to let into the country based on that. see its all democratic.

until the arab members of the country become big enough to demand changes, which is about 15 years from now. already steps taken by israel to keep it a jewish state are being called undemocratic. and reminds everyone of aparteid south africa

that’s depressing

or quite refreshing, its the same in many parts of europe

1) it is not only whites who speak primarily English, blacks also mostly speak English, and I'd wager most second generation Hispanics do too.

besides the point, im saying if the people decide to also make spanish an official language, then itll be done.

2) Hispanics are not a voting bloc, they have differences like Cuban and Mexican etc. unless the communist gov't there falls theirs little chance Cuba is going on to nato

cubans are only big in florida, the vast majority of hispanic do indeed vote as a bloc. as we seen in the recent immigration demonstrations and elections in many states.
you bringing up cubans is evidence enough that you dont even know of any other factions.
pakistan is a non-nato ally, so stranger things have happened.
Also communism has nothing to do with being a member of nato, if an islamic dictatorship can become an ally, so can cuba.

Because of course the Muslim cabinet member will be a pinnacle of uncorrupted virtue. All politicians are the same, whether American, French, Israeli or Chinese.

lets just say he wont be raping anyone soon? BURN!

[notworthabean]

thats irrelevant to citizenship and or voting and hence has no effect on the ability to change the country in any way they see fit.

But it is relevant to the "real" members of those nations, because, if history is any guide, in about 10 years they'll realize how many non-nation members there are in their countries and return to their bloody past. That was what we are talking about and that is what you need to get through your thick skulls. It is a very rare nation that just lets people come in and take over.

thats not what were talking about, democracy does mean the people of the country, no matter their ethnicity or religion decide who represents them in the country and decide what they want for the country

not i means the citizens. You can live in a country and never become a citizen.

until the arab members of the country become big enough to demand changes, which is about 15 years from now. already steps taken by israel to keep it a jewish state are being called undemocratic. and reminds everyone of aparteid south africa

a lot can happen in 15 years, esp. over there

or quite refreshing, its the same in many parts of europe

depressing because I am pro-Blair, I am not sure why a guy named "red ken" getting re-elected with the support of Muslims who preach violence in their mosques and who’s young support imposing sharia law is "refreshing" unless your, well lacking in brain function.

besides the point, im saying if the people decide to also make spanish an official language, then itll be done.

well if the nations representatives want it really. We aren't a direct democracy ya know.

[b]cubans are only big in florida, the vast majority of hispanic do indeed vote as a bloc. as we seen in the recent immigration demonstrations and elections in many states. you bringing up cubans is evidence enough that you dont even know of any other factions.

1) the point was cubans are powerful

2) Hispanics do not vote in a bloc, at least not like blacks and Jews, not all Hispanics were in those marches, and more importantly even those who were in them for easier immigration aren't for making Spanish an official language or making Cuba a member of nato.

3) Sure I do, there’s Puerto Ricans, Mexicans, Guatemalans, Panamanians, some have been here longer then others, some have deep and undying loyalties to the country they came from, other do not, their kids and grand kids will undoubtedly feel stronger ties to the US then whatever country their parents came from.

pakistan is a non-nato ally, so stranger things have happened. Also communism has nothing to do with being a member of nato, if an islamic dictatorship can become an ally, so can cuba.

what are you smoking?

lets just say he wont be raping anyone soon? BURN!

how would you know this?

p.s. what’s with the idiotic "BURN" and "pwnt"? are you a 15 year old counterstrike player?

[GHook93]

Quote by: RickSp The thread is about the addition of a Muslim to the Israeli cabinet. My response was completely on topic. It addressed past and current Israeli cabinet members. The historic and current level of corruption and abuse in the Israeli government will indeed have a direct impact on whether Raleb Majadele, the new Muslim cabinet member, will have any possibility of being effective. Discussing the Israeli cabinet with no reference to its current and past problems is to discuss the topic completely out of context. My comments are far more on topic than the discussion of the government of Lebanon that you have wandered off on. Regarding the Israeli cabinet, another ex-cabinet member, former Justice Minister Haim Ramon, has been convicted of sexual harrassment today. It is one of several ongoing scandals involving cabinet officials.Ex-Israeli Minister Is Convicted

At least they convict members of the leadership of crimes. That never happened with the extremely corrupt PLO (Arafat), Sadam in Iraq, Syria, Lebannon etc. This means no one is above the law in Israel.

[ByaKya]

[quote]

Quote by: notworthabean But it is relevant to the "real" members of those nations, because, if history is any guide, in about 10 years they'll realize how many non-nation members there are in their countries and return to their bloody past. That was what we are talking about and that is what you need to get through your thick skulls. It is a very rare nation that just lets people come in and take over.

there is no "real" member of a nation in a democracy other than citizen!
they are equal in all respects!.
non-nation members? what are you babbling about?
citizens of a minority ethnic group are the same as citizens of the majority ethnic group, and if the minority becomes the majority one day, and changes something or everything, thats democracy and youre gonna have to live with it.

not i means the citizens. You can live in a country and never become a citizen.

irrelevant, i am talking only about citizens.

a lot can happen in 15 years, esp. over there

yes, i dont see anything changing that course, other than israel adopting word for word apartied policies, in which case the world will have a feild day if that happens

depressing because I am pro-Blair, I am not sure why a guy named "red ken" getting re-elected with the support of Muslims who preach violence in their mosques and who’s young support imposing sharia law is "refreshing" unless your, well lacking in brain function.

ok you just said you are pro-blair. theres like 5 people that are pro-blair, and none of them are even in his party. talk about lacking in brain function

well if the nations representatives want it really. We aren't a direct democracy ya know.

again, the representatives elected by those people will indeed make sure their voices are heard and their wills carried out.
this "we arent a direct democracy" line has been used by hannity to explain some kind of wall against non-whites taking over the government. rofl

1) the point was cubans are powerful

only in florida

2) Hispanics do not vote in a bloc, at least not like blacks and Jews, not all Hispanics were in those marches, and more importantly even those who were in them for easier immigration aren't for making Spanish an official language or making Cuba a member of nato.

i used those as examples, but the spanish part is indeed something they are for. not on a nationwide level, but without a doubt on a local level where many hispanics live. been to any southwestern states lately?

3) Sure I do, there’s Puerto Ricans, Mexicans, Guatemalans, Panamanians, some have been here longer then others, some have deep and undying loyalties to the country they came from, other do not, their kids and grand kids will undoubtedly feel stronger ties to the US then whatever country their parents came from.

ROFL. Yes, if im the child of an immigrant, i will be ok with the prospect of my parents being deported out of loyal to the united states, ROFLL ahahahaha
i was at the immigration marches, people were with their familes, and the young people were even more how do i say this.... militant? extreme? in what they believed

what are you smoking?

pakistan is a non-nato ally, do you deny this?
and there is no country on the planet that has any kind of a problem with cuba other than the united states.