Iraq panel: Withdraw combat units by 2008

[The Decider]

WP: Iraq panel: Withdraw most troops by 2008 - washingtonpost.com Highlights - MSNBC.com

By Peter Baker and Thomas E. Ricks The bipartisan Iraq Study Group plans to recommend withdrawing nearly all U.S. combat units from Iraq by early 2008 while leaving behind troops to train, advise and support the Iraqis, setting the first goal for a major drawdown of U.S. forces, sources familiar with the proposal said yesterday. The commission plan would shift the U.S. mission in Iraq to a secondary role as the fragile Baghdad government and its security forces take the lead in fighting a Sunni insurgency and trying to halt sectarian violence. As part of major changes in the U.S. presence, sources said, the plan recommends embedding U.S. soldiers directly in Iraqi security units starting as early as next month to improve leadership and effectiveness. The call to pull out combat brigades by early 2008 would be more a conditional goal than a firm timetable, predicated on the assumption that circumstances on the ground would permit it, according to the sources, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because the commission's report will not be released until next week. But panel members concluded that it is vital to set a target to put pressure on Iraqi leaders to do more to assume responsibility for the security of their country. "It's really about transitioning from a combat to a support role, and basically making very clear that this is no longer an open-ended commitment and we're going to get this done whether the Iraqis like it or not," said one of the sources. "Everybody understands that we're at the end of the road here."

[Zeebadee]

I don't think we will stay in Iraq for even that long. I suspect the Maliki government will fall and be replaced by one that will politely ask us to leave earlier.

[Cephus]

There's no question that the Maliki government is doomed to fail but do you honestly think that Bush is going to listen to anyone who "asks" us to leave? Once his puppet regime goes away, he'll just invade again under some stupid pretense and put in another puppet regime.

It'll never get through Bush's pea-brain that the cornerstone of democracy is the right to self-governance and to decide what form of government you want. Bush isn't giving them a choice and it's going to come back to bite us in the ass.

[grandpa]

Quote by: Cephus There's no question that the Maliki government is doomed to fail but do you honestly think that Bush is going to listen to anyone who "asks" us to leave? Once his puppet regime goes away, he'll just invade again under some stupid pretense and put in another puppet regime.

It's clear we're failing, even by government estimates.
But it'ds also clear that this is an ideological/culture
war involving questions of power.

Eventually the powers that be will be forced to be less powerful or forced to be no more.

Grandpa h.

[Cephus]

Quote by: grandpa Eventually the powers that be will be forced to be less powerful or forced to be no more.

Only by bloody conflict. This is a war between religious and ethnic ideologies, neither side is going to give up, neither side is going to surrender, neither side is going to compromise. The only way for one side to win is for all other sides to go extinct.

[grandpa]

Quote by: Cephus Only by bloody conflict. This is a war between religious and ethnic ideologies, neither side is going to give up, neither side is going to surrender, neither side is going to compromise.

"If we don't fight them over there, we
will have to fight them here."

For me now there is no "pro" and "anti" aspect of this war. It's an utter failure by any practical standard.

Grandpa h.

[ByaKya]

Bush will do with this, what he does with all good advice he gets.

[Cephus]

Quote by: grandpa "If we don't fight them over there, we will have to fight them here."

Which, of course, is stupid. If we'd just leave them alone, they wouldn't have any interest in bothering us. They just want to be free to run their own affairs as they see fit and AFAIC, they are entitled to self-determination. Unfortunately, they sit on top of a good portion of the world's oil and therefore the western world isn't going to leave them alone.

For me now there is no "pro" and "anti" aspect of this war. It's an utter failure by any practical standard.

You're absolutely right, it is an utter failure. So long as we can't respect their right to exist, why should we expect them to do so for us? The more we meddle, the more they're going to strike back, by whatever means we leave available to them.

[grandpa]

Quote by: Cephus Which, of course, is stupid. If we'd just leave them alone, they wouldn't have any interest in bothering us.

It should be noted that their interest and ability to bother us is far over-exaggerated.
Most Iraqis are victims of one sort or another, forced to face the brunt of bad policies.

Grandpa h.

[Cephus]

Quote by: grandpa It should be noted that their interest and ability to bother us is far over-exaggerated. Most Iraqis are victims of one sort or another, forced to face the brunt of bad policies.

It isn't just the Iraqis that anyone has been worried about but the various terrorist groups, especially Al Qaeda, but what idiot thinks that they're all going to rush to Iraq to fight the US? Why haven't they rushed to the US to fight us? It's interesting that since 9/11, the FBI has not been able to find a single Al Qaeda cell operating in the US. Not one. So either they don't exist and the threat, like everything else the Bush administration claims, is minimal at best or they're really, really, really competent, at which point you have to wonder why they haven't attacked again. Thinking they all ran off to Iraq to fight us there is outright stupid.

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: Cephus I So either they don't exist and the threat, like everything else the Bush administration claims, is minimal at best or they're really, really, really competent, at which point you have to wonder why they haven't attacked again.

A good indication of which is true is the total refusal of this administration to secure our borders.

[grandpa]

Quote by: Cephus It isn't just the Iraqis that anyone has been worried about but the various terrorist groups, especially Al Qaeda, but what idiot thinks that they're all going to rush to Iraq to fight the US? Why haven't they rushed to the US to fight us?

The war-supporters have this lousy habit of calling opponents "Liberal." Well, in the case of the Iraq War it's clear that, as Stephen Colbert put it: "Reality has a well-known liberal bias."

Meanwhile, the majority of Iraq will continue support for the Palestinian uprising against Israel's state terrorism. This won't likely change until those with power are changed, replaced or removed.

Grandpa h.

[grandpa]

Quote by: Zeebadee A good indication of which is true is the total refusal of this administration to secure our borders.

Whether we agree with borders or not, can't we at least acknowledge that respecting borders is a two-way street?

Grandpa h.

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: grandpa Whether we agree with borders or not, can't we at least acknowledge that respecting borders is a two-way street? Grandpa h.

Hmmm.... yes, I guess so. For my part, I promise not to sneak into Mexico.

[grandpa]

Quote by: Zeebadee Hmmm.... yes, I guess so. For my part, I promise not to sneak into Mexico.

You're neglecting that you aren't the only one involved in the issue.

Grandpa h.

[Cephus]

Quote by: grandpa You're neglecting that you aren't the only one involved in the issue.

Are you suggesting that we have a major problem with Americans sneaking into Mexico?

Or any problem whatsoever?

[grandpa]

Quote by: Cephus Are you suggesting that we have a major problem with Americans sneaking into Mexico? Or any problem whatsoever?

I was suggesting that

a) The issue is not only about Zeebadee, you or me

b) The US does not always respect international borders--an obvious fact.

We are setting up a global economy, including global investors rights and the free exchange of capital between international corporations.
So, yes, we are seeing American interests sneaking into Mexico and other places throughout the globe. And none of this stuff is a secret or a theory--it's a fact, at least to anyone who has looked into the issues at all.

The question I've posed before is why should capital and private institutions have free flow from one nation to the next and not actual human beings who are typically only seeking a better life?

This is quite an amazing double standard.

Grandpa h.

[Rainbow]

The bipartisan Iraq Study Group plans to recommend withdrawing nearly all U.S. combat units from Iraq by early 2008 while leaving behind troops to train, advise and support the Iraqis, setting the first goal for a major drawdown of U.S. forces

Even though, U.S. military units for training Iraqi military and security personnel, will be deployed off Iraq soil.

[Cephus]

Quote by: grandpa We are setting up a global economy, including global investors rights and the free exchange of capital between international corporations.

Welcome to reality.

So, yes, we are seeing American interests sneaking into Mexico and other places throughout the globe. And none of this stuff is a secret or a theory--it's a fact, at least to anyone who has looked into the issues at all.

But we're not seeing physical Americans doing so. Mexico is more than welcome to set up their own international economy, which would be a heck of a lot better than just shipping their poor north, but instead they are corrupt and passing their problems off on others.

It's sad that you support that.

[The Decider]

Quote by: Cephus But we're not seeing physical Americans doing so. Mexico is more than welcome to set up their own international economy, which would be a heck of a lot better than just shipping their poor north, but instead they are corrupt and passing their problems off on others. It's sad that you support that.

How did troop withdrawal in Iraq morph into international trade in Mexico?