US defends tracking transactions

[rmnunez]

Have terrorists switched to other ways of moving money? Do you know which (terrorists or ways)? Should tracking international transactions of a terrorist profile stop and they focus on these other ways of moving money?

[Boetie]

rmnunez posts:Have terrorists switched to other ways of moving money? Do you know which (terrorists or ways)? Should tracking international transactions of a terrorist profile stop and they focus on these other ways of moving money?

Before I answer your question I would like to say one thing. This news of Bush Jr committing illegal spying could be a way for Bush Jr to control the media under the guise of fighting terrorism.

Now for the explanation. This spying of Bush Jr is a joke and he knows it. The United States government has always known of a time honored system known as Hawala. I will provide a link. Hawala does not keep records. So why is this spying on bank records going on?

Here is the link to learn more about Hawala.

Hawala

Also note the year on that web site, 2002, yep, four years ago, fours years Bush Jr has been spying on United States citizens bank records for nothing when this Hawala system has been going on for who knows how long.

[rcne]

I don't think Hawala can transfer large sums of money totally outside the international banking system. True they can send small chunks multiple times and achieve the same effect.

The question aside from all the political, free press, conspiracy, government mistrust, etc,etc, is that : Is it OK to release information about international operations.

Before you answer - think of Phame.

[Boetie]

rcne, I take it you mean Plame.

Now for my post. Here is a link along with a cut an paste from that link. Pluse my always insightful comments.

It's not about terrorism it's about Politics

The program uses broad government subpoenas to obtain information from a database managed by a private company in Belgium that processes 11 million financial transactions a day in 200 countries.

See my post on Hawala above. It is doubtful that all of Hawala's transaction will be in the database Bush Jr is spying on. Not that AWOL boy and Chicken Dick has ever left their no reality zone.

While other newspapers, including the Houston Chronicle, printed details of the program, Bush singled out the New York Times for censure, arguing that the newspaper's disclosure makes it harder for the administration to fight terrorism.

Gee wonder why they singled out the Times? someone has an idea as to why, it's in the link provided and posted here

"It's a nice political opportunity, and the Times is a target among their base," said Dennis Simon, a political scientist at Southern Methodist University. "The ardent conservatives in the Republican Party believe in biased mainstream media, and at the top of that list is the New York Times. So this is good politics for them."

Not only is it good politics for them, but did you know that long before the Times printed the story they listened to the White House argument as to why the story shouldn't be printed.

What's interesting about this is the Times also listened to the White House's argument as to why the NSA phone spying story shouldn't be printed.

In both cases why didn't the White House just take the Times to court and have the judge stop the paper from printing either of the stories?

They did this with the Pentagon Papers, that one went all the way to the Supreme Court.

Perhaps it's because the White House didn't want their own action to be commented on by the judicial branch of our government. A comment that can prove to be embarrassing.

[Mr.Vicchio]

Quote by: brien Not true Vic. Every deposit over $10,000 one makes into their bank account is reported to the IRS.

That's been the case since before 9/11.... And that's for tax purposes not for tracking terror.

[Marconius]

Quote by: rcne I don't think Hawala can transfer large sums of money totally outside the international banking system. True they can send small chunks multiple times and achieve the same effect. The question aside from all the political, free press, conspiracy, government mistrust, etc,etc, is that : Is it OK to release information about international operations. Before you answer - think of Phame.

These are two separate issues, one is about a cia operative outed allegedly because her husband spoke out against the people in power, and told the truth I might add. The other is about a newspaper that reported news that was already out but that many non-terrorists apparently didnt know about.

These issues dont have any correlation to each other and the NYT story has done nothing to hurt national security.

It is okay to release information when the public interest outweighs the national interest. If there is no national interest in keeping this secret from the american people then it is acceptable to release it.

[rmnunez]

If US intelligence gathering focused on this Hawala system instead of SWIFT, isn't it foreseable terrorists would use SWIFT instead?

[Boetie]

rmnunez posts: If US intelligence gathering focused on this Hawala system instead of SWIFT, isn't it foreseable terrorists would use SWIFT instead?

SWIFT keeps records and transaction, it wouldn't be smart for terrorists to use SWIFT.

As far as intelligence focusing on Hawala that would be difficult because Hawala doesn't keep record, thus no paper trails.

If the US tries to stop Hawalas from operating this may cause a revolt from Africa all the way to SouthEast Asia, poor people rely on Hawalas to survive. Hawalas charge only 1 to 3 percent for their services, whereas traditional banking and financial institutions charge up to 15 percent for services.

Another problem is that if you crack down on Hawala operations, you will only push it underground making it even more difficult to monitor not to mention it will hurt the innocent poor tremendously.

I wish there was a Hawala system here in the Western Hemisphere. Latinos would sure use it to transfer money back home to their native Latin American country. Poor Americans would benefit by using it to transfer money across state lines. Let's face it, you can't beat the 1 to 3 percent rate.

[jose]

I would imagine Western Union also gives up its data?
how much money are they looking at? remember not so long ago this news story
¨$500K Seized; Strange Situation Reported At Nuclear Plant¨

[tivodan1116]

Quote by: Apeman81 Quote by: Milton Bradley How about the constitution" Article and Section. All else is bluster

5th Amendment, for one. 14th Amendment as well.

[jose]

One of the prime aims of the current Administration is to prevent Americans from shipping money to overseas banks,
http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=4710

[Apeman81]

Quote by: tivodan1116 5th Amendment, for one. 14th Amendment as well.

5th amendment: No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

How does it apply to this thread?

14th amendment: Section. 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Section. 2. Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed. But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the Executive and Judicial officers of a State, or the members of the Legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such State, being twenty-one years of age, and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such State.

Section. 3. No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.

Section. 4. The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.

Section. 5. The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.

And how does this apply?

[jose]

Section. 3. No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof.


i wonder does that include those who have dual US Israeli citizenship

America first or not

[rmnunez]

XIVth Amendment, §1: ...No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States;

Could relate if secrecy in banking is deemed a priviledge or immunity of such citizens.

[Apeman81]

Quote by: rmnunez Could relate if secrecy in banking is deemed a priviledge or immunity of such citizens.

Agreed. At this juncture, I do not believe it has been so adjudicated. Do you know of such a ruling?

[rmnunez]

No, but I do know the US constitution has been held to protect privacy rights relating to confidentiality interpreted to be implicit in the 5th and 14th Amendments. See "Bank Secrecy Act Regulations" at 31 CFR 103.22 (transactions in currency), 31 CFR 103.23 (transportation of currency or monetary instruments), 31 CFR 103.24 (foreign financial accounts), 31 CFR 103.28 (requisite identification), 31 CFR 103.29 (bank checks, drafts, cashier's checks, money orders and traveler's checks purchase or sale) and 31 CFR 103.33 (records to be made and retained by financial institutions).

[Apeman81]

Quote by: rmnunez No, but I do know the US constitution has been held to protect privacy rights relating to confidentiality interpreted to be implicit in the 5th and 14th Amendments. See "Bank Secrecy Act Regulations" at 31 CFR 103.22 (transactions in currency), 31 CFR 103.23 (transportation of currency or monetary instruments), 31 CFR 103.24 (foreign financial accounts), 31 CFR 103.28 (requisite identification), 31 CFR 103.29 (bank checks, drafts, cashier's checks, money orders and traveler's checks purchase or sale) and 31 CFR 103.33 (records to be made and retained by financial institutions).

Thank you. It appears, however, that not all records are held as "private". - 12 CFR 21.11 requires every national bank to file a Suspicious Activity Report (SAR) when certain types of transactions ocurr. Clearly, the answer is one found in the finer points of law.

[rmnunez]

Yes, as I noted earlier, banks are licensed and acredited based on compliance with the regulations of the jurisdiction where they are allowed to operate. Those regulations involve reporting requirements and these include as much data on bank activity and those of their clients as the jurisdiction's regulators figure they can get away with. There are good reasons for banking secrecy, but the people most concerned with this are those who use the confidenciality to conceal tax-evasive transactions and there should be no privacy for that.

[rmnunez]

News (5 years ago):

Treasury Secretary Paul O'Neill announced that authorities have blocked $24 million in terrorist assets in the US belonging to at least 9 organizations and 2 individuals. According to O'Neill, 112 nations are working together to block another $43 million in assets in Somalia, Liechtenstein, the Bahamas, Sweden, Canada, Austria, Italy, and the United Arab Emirates. The president said that the UAE and Saudi Arabia have joined the G-8 countries (UK, Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Russia, and Japan, and the US) in supporting US efforts to block terrorist funding. He also said that countries who do not cooperate with this effort would suffer consequences. President Bush highlighted two major international financial networks, Al Taqua and Al-Barakaat, which authorities accuse of funding Osama bin Laden's al-Qaida organization. Many affiliate companies of Al Taqua and Al-Barakaat operate unlicensed money exchanges, known as hawalas, alleged to funnel money to terrorist groups without leaving a paper trail.Authorities suspect that the hawalas served as a covert communications network for terrorists (including al-Qaida) and raised funds for bin Laden's network. http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/...oney_11-7.html

[Mia]

Quote by: Mr.Vicchio It's amazing that now that they are doing these "Secret" trackings we haven't been hit again here in the USA and have seen a good number of terror cells taken out. I think that is worth noting. Besides, they are traking large money transferes to and from over seas, not reading your bank statement.

V, you're acting like being hit over here was a common occurrance until we started doing this. There is no way to say 'thus and such' is preventing it.