Seven charged over 'Chicago plot'

[Scribbler1]

Quote by: Zeebadee So far this "terror bust" is working perfectly. It's being covered almost non-stop on tv and in the print media. It's a triumph of major proportions for the bush administration. Media coverage of Haditha and the secret surveillance of financial transactions has virtually disappeared. One has to wonder about how many more of these "highly dangerous terror cells" are being cultivated by government infiltrators, just waiting for the proper political conditions before another high-profile "terror bust".

It's just like this Al Zakawri (sp?) in Iraq. This fearesome #1 of Al queda in Iraq was replaced before the media even stopped showing the dead guy's photo every 5 minutes. Yet we were treated to speeches and right wing "analysts" on FOX saying what a strong blow it was to the terrorists. It looks like one big PR stunt.

[Zeebadee]

Another view of the mass hysteria and hype being generated by the bush administration's Mighty Wurlitzer - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mighty_Wurlitzer_(media).

"In other words, this whole affair is a government set-up, engineered to hype the “homegrown” threat of domestic terrorism, that next phase of the neocon effort to trash the Constitution and further militarize society in preparation for World War Four, the generational crusade made in Israel and transplanted in America, the only nation on earth with the required military prowess and a population sufficiently brainwashed and easily frightened by phony terrorists."
http://kurtnimmo.com/?p=431

[Scribbler1]

I don't know. Our military prowess isn't too impressive right now. We are overtaxing our troops in Iraq with no "victory" in sight and we are SO overextended in Afghanistan we pretty much watch our own asses over there while the Taliban regroups.

[dreamer]

link .http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/5113232.stm .

Relatives of seven men arrested over an alleged plot to blow up the Sears Tower in Chicago and attack FBI offices have been protesting the group's innocence.

More to these than meets the eye. the family's seem angry for some reason.

[Sonart]

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Quote by: Zeebadee quoted "In other words, this whole affair is a government set-up, engineered to hype the “homegrown” threat of domestic terrorism, that next phase of the neocon effort to trash the Constitution and further militarize society in preparation for World War Four, the generational crusade made in Israel and transplanted in America, the only nation on earth with the required military prowess and a population sufficiently brainwashed and easily frightened by phony terrorists."

What strikes me is that the Bush League has been telling us for years that it's better to be fighting terrorists in Iraq than over here. Now it turns out we still have to fight them over here too. Fortunately this turned out to be not al-Qaeda Lite, but al-Qaeda non-alcohol.

Quote by: dreamer More to these than meets the eye. the family's seem angry for some reason.

Moms don't like to see their poor little darlins in jail, especially if they think the government somehow tricked them into being stupid... on every TV channel and paper in the country. We see this all the time... some irate husband hires a hitman to knock off his wife, only to find out the hitman is an undercover cop who's been videotaping all their meetings and they end up on "America's Dumbest Criminals".

.

[dreamer]

Quote by: Sonart . What strikes me is that the Bush League has been telling us for years that it's better to be fighting terrorists in Iraq than over here. Now it turns out we still have to fight them over here too. Fortunately this turned out to be not al-Qaeda Lite, but al-Qaeda non-alcohol. Moms don't like to see their poor little darlins in jail, especially if they think the government somehow tricked them into being stupid... on every TV channel and paper in the country. We see this all the time... some irate husband hires a hitman to knock off his wife, only to find out the hitman is an undercover cop who's been videotaping all their meetings and they end up on "America's Dumbest Criminals". .

Yes your right mothers cry for there babies."America's Dumbest Criminals". do you reckon bush jr, will be on this "America's Dumbest Criminals". Dreamer.

[deedee]

Quote by: Wailer All seven of the alleged terrorists are black. Black radio suggests their arrests were racially motivated and to be wary of Hoover's FBI. Anyone have something to say about that?

The people who bombed OKC were all white.....so what? If these people are found to be conspiring.....it should not matter what color you are. I'm sure these people will be questioned....we will wait and see what happens......

[Sonart]

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Quote by: Wailer All seven of the alleged terrorists are black.

So? Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold were white, as were Mitch Johnson and Andrew Golden. It's not a case of DWB or powder cocaine v. crack. No one forced these kids to come up with this plot, and there's no indication that white terrorist plotters have been pursued less aggressively.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, and these plotters were black because they just happened to be black.

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[tivodan1116]

My only comment on this issue is this:

Remember these guys the next time some dolt makes the argument on here or elsewhere that we need to "secure our borders" to protect against terrorism.
These men are citizens.
The OKC bombers were citizens.
All 19 of the 9/11 hijackers entered the country legally.

People that say we need to "secure our borders" (and usually only mean Mexico) have something else in their head. Securing the borders is just the smokescreen.

[Marilyn Monroe]

Quote by: Apeman81 Maybe. Or maybe another Timothy Mcveigh. Stupid talk can lead to stupid action with the right catalyst.

The FBI may have just speeded things up a bit. Anybody can make a bomb, so destruction from within isn't an impossibility, but the FBI can't sit and nurture till the group decides on the inevitable, if they ever do. When so inclined people will act, and sometimes it has a grim outcome, so I say however they were coerced, good, it's over, and now there is one less group of malcontents running loose.

[Scribbler1]

Quote by: Marilyn Monroe The FBI may have just speeded things up a bit. Anybody can make a bomb, so destruction from within isn't an impossibility, but the FBI can't sit and nurture till the group decides on the inevitable, if they ever do. When so inclined people will act, and sometimes it has a grim outcome, so I say however they were coerced, good, it's over, and now there is one less group of malcontents running loose.

But these groups can be coerced by the infiltrators. All it takes is one person to play cheerleader and these guys (who don't seem all that bright, frankly) will continue to incubate their hatred. Who was it these guys thought could give them money and weapons? I can't speak for this specific situation but human nature often just makes you give up when nothing you do pans out. If this FBI plant hadn't given them the hope they would at least be EQUIPPED like real terrorists they might have just gotten bored, taken their korans and gone home.
How many times has something angered you to the point of action and later you just said "ah, you can't win" and went on with your life?

And before anyone is deafened by the sound of the feds slapping themselves on the back, remember one important thing. The FBI did NOT "crack" this case. They were TIPPED OFF! There was no outstanding investigative work involved. Someone TOLD them where to look! All the random phone taps, bank account scrutiny and personal information harvesting had NOTHING to do with this.
I find it interesting this is the best they can show as an example of how well they are protecting the American people. But we will sit back and blindly believe they really have a need for all the intrusions into private lives because we got one little band of boneheads that didn't even have the budget for BOOTS!

And to top it off, some asshole who bills herself as FOX's "terrorism expert" said on TV yesterday, "The government is stopping these terror groups all the time. And a lot of times we don't even KNOW about it" (quoting from memory, but that is almost exactly what she said).

[Wailer]

Thanks. I was just trying to see what you guys thought about Black radio commenting that the seven men arrested in Miami was simple racism on the part of the FBI.

I thought it was ridiculous myself. McVeigh was white and Padilla was hispanic. But I didn't hear any cries of foul play when those scumbags were arrested. A terrorist is a terrorist is a terrorist. A homegrown terrorist, however, is a traitor and IMHO should be tried for treason and executed by firing squad.

The Miami Seven, as I have decided to label them, reportedly said they wanted to kill as many devils as possible. If they truly intended on killing "devils", then they were the racists---not the FBI and not the rest of us. Thanks for your comments.

Wailer out

P.S. Scribbler, you crack me up. Keep it coming.

[Sonart]

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Quote by: Scribbler But these groups can be coerced by the infiltrators. All it takes is one person to play cheerleader and these guys (who don't seem all that bright, frankly) will continue to incubate their hatred.

I suppose it's possible. But as I said, I've seen these stings before with undercover agents posing as hitmen, dealers or whatever, and they always seem to go out of their way to appear to be stoically disinterested third parties. Sorta, 'Hey, I'm just here to make a buck and stay outta trouble. You do whatever you wanna do, I really don't care.' and then let the subjects hang themselves in their enthusiasm to impress the 'pro'.

Quote by: Scribbler If this FBI plant hadn't given them the hope they would at least be EQUIPPED like real terrorists they might have just gotten bored, taken their korans and gone home.

Or found someone else who would supply them with munitions. Where there's an intent, there's a will, and second guessing what they might have done isn't in the interests of public safety.

Quote by: Scribbler And to top it off, some asshole who bills herself as FOX's "terrorism expert" said on TV yesterday, "The government is stopping these terror groups all the time. And a lot of times we don't even KNOW about it" (quoting from memory, but that is almost exactly what she said).

Indeed... like the guy that was gonna bring down the Brooklyn Bridge... with a blowtorch.

FAUX News appears unrepentently willing to cheerlead anything that comes out of the Whitehouse. I'm reminded of the FAUX News roundtable discussion on Global Warming. The Moderator and two featured journalists were all naysayers who lapped up the comments from the "scientific expert"... another Global Warming 'debunker'. The number of guests representing the vast majority of scientific opinion? Zero.

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[Scribbler1]

Quote by: Sonart I suppose it's possible. But as I said, I've seen these stings before with undercover agents posing as hitmen, dealers or whatever, and they always seem to go out of their way to appear to be stoically disinterested third parties. Sorta, 'Hey, I'm just here to make a buck and stay outta trouble. You do whatever you wanna do, I really don't care.' and then let the subjects hang themselves in their enthusiasm to impress the 'pro'.

That sounds like conventional wisdom, but very little coming from this administration lately seems either conventional OR wise. I think it just as likely these people were manipulated by the "Al Queada contact."

Or found someone else who would supply them with munitions. Where there's an intent, there's a will, and second guessing what they might have done isn't in the interests of public safety.

It wouldn't BE second guessing as long as the informant was involved, and we have been told the FBI was on them since they got the tip and this should mean they would know if anyone else wanted to support them.
In any case, my point was that if they want to yell about THIS bust from the mountaintop either they aren't doing such a great job or the threat is a LOT less than we are told. Either way I don't see where phone records and international money exchanges had anything to do with this.
And remember this happened almost to the day the news about unauthorized snooping into bank records broke and we don't hear much about THAT, do we?

If we have a threat, I want, and EXPECT my government to do something about it. But the Bush administration is the ultimate "boy who cried wolf." Despite the administrations miserable track record it expects everything they say or do to be believed as if the past never happened.

[Sonart]

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Quote by: Scribbler That sounds like conventional wisdom, but very little coming from this administration lately seems either conventional OR wise.

And that sounds like presumption. You presume this originated out of the administration, rather than simply the FBI doing their jobs. They can't control how much hay the Bush Leagure tries to make out of it or how the media wants to play it up, which, considering the nature of the plot, shouldn't be much.

But as you point out, if the FBI gets a tip, and considering the history of both domestic and foreign terror attacks, I think they have the responsibility to intercept it. If the media and the administration wants to make a bigger thing out of it than it is, well, we can't do much to stop them, but I don't blame the FBI involved for that.

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[Boetie]

Wailer posts: Thanks. I was just trying to see what you guys thought about Black radio commenting that the seven men arrested in Miami was simple racism on the part of the FBI.

How do you account for the fact that the Miami Seven as you call them got bigger publicity than that crazy white ass white man you can read about at this link.

Whites don't get big play

As far as your bringing up McVeigh, that would be hard for the media to explain to the people that citizens getting blown up to pieces is not news worthy.

Padilla, like you said, is hispanic.

Which brings us back to the question, why didn't that white supremist get a lot of air play?

Here is an interesting link that comments on the subject of the link above

White Supremist downplayed

The following is from the link, which I titled "White Supremist downplayed"

Publicizing a conspiracy by the extreme right, however, cuts across the administration’s aims on two counts. First, it diverts from the principal tactic pursued by the Bush White House ever since September 11: exploiting alleged terrorist threats to justify US military aggression first against Afghanistan and then against Iraq. Second, the fascistic politics of the defendants present a major problem because of the political ties of the Bush administration and the Republican Party to extreme right-wing elements, including militia fanatics and white supremacists.

[Wailer]

Holy crap!!! I never heard that story. It sounds like the Turner Diaries.

That goes back to what I said earlier. Homegrown terrorists need to be charged with treason and executed via firing squad.

Thanks for the info. I will be researching further.

[Marilyn Monroe]

Quote by: Scribbler1 But these groups can be coerced by the infiltrators. All it takes is one person to play cheerleader and these guys (who don't seem all that bright, frankly) will continue to incubate their hatred. Who was it these guys thought could give them money and weapons? I can't speak for this specific situation but human nature often just makes you give up when nothing you do pans out. If this FBI plant hadn't given them the hope they would at least be EQUIPPED like real terrorists they might have just gotten bored, taken their korans and gone home. How many times has something angered you to the point of action and later you just said "ah, you can't win" and went on with your life? And before anyone is deafened by the sound of the feds slapping themselves on the back, remember one important thing. The FBI did NOT "crack" this case. They were TIPPED OFF! There was no outstanding investigative work involved. Someone TOLD them where to look! All the random phone taps, bank account scrutiny and personal information harvesting had NOTHING to do with this. I find it interesting this is the best they can show as an example of how well they are protecting the American people. But we will sit back and blindly believe they really have a need for all the intrusions into private lives because we got one little band of boneheads that didn't even have the budget for BOOTS! And to top it off, some asshole who bills herself as FOX's "terrorism expert" said on TV yesterday, "The government is stopping these terror groups all the time. And a lot of times we don't even KNOW about it" (quoting from memory, but that is almost exactly what she said).

They have to get tipped off by somebody at some point. That's still investigative. It takes work to follow up and interrogate tipsters. Not all tipsters are cooperative. Some may have a vague suspicion, nothing more.

I saw an FBI file on the Discovery Channel that documented a gang from Chicago I believe that had attempted to contact Lybia & Kaddafi, and were going to buy weapons or some such terroristic activity. This was in the 80's and the FBI & CIA picked up on it. They have some very involved infiltration systems that they use. To me it's impressive.

I had never heard of this crime, but if you watch this program, it is on The Discovery Channel, it details all that they go through to get some of these characters.

Here's an actual bombing that happened in Stateline, NV in 1981. I never heard of this happening.
The FBI had to figure out who left the bomb, and caused this damage. Very interesting how they did it all.

http://gamblingmagazine.com/ManageAr...?C=540&A=14974

This is about a gang from Chicago:

[url]http://dsc.discovery.com/tvlistings/episode.jsp?episode=109&cpi=21141&gid=0&channel=DSC[/url

Look up El Rukn. They were caught in the 80's. They wanted to buy the hand missles from Lybia. The website I had didn't work.

To me if you have no intention of doing anything criminal you won't, no matter how much coercion there is. You have to have the desire to do it.

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: Sonart But as you point out, if the FBI gets a tip, and considering the history of both domestic and foreign terror attacks, I think they have the responsibility to intercept it. If the media and the administration wants to make a bigger thing out of it than it is, well, we can't do much to stop them, but I don't blame the FBI involved for that.

This whole "terror plot" is sheer crap.

"The four-count indictment presented by the Justice Department in a Miami federal court on Friday contains not a single indication of an overt criminal act or even the means to carry one out. The brief 11-page document consists almost entirely of alleged statements made by the defendants to the FBI informant, referred to in quotes throughout the indictment as “the al Qaeda representative.”

<snip>

Elements of the federal indictment are so self-incriminating as to border on the ludicrous. Among the charges are that the defendants “swore an oath of loyalty to al Qaeda.” Who administered this oath? The “al Qaeda representative,” AKA, the paid informant of the FBI.

Aside from this “loyalty oath” solicited by the FBI, only one of the seven defendants is accused of any overt act, outside of driving the FBI informant to meetings.

The only action with which this one individual is charged—all else is words—is taking pictures of the FBI headquarters in Miami. Who supplied the camera? The “al Qaeda representative”—i.e., the FBI agent provocateur.

The indictment further charges two of the accused with driving “with the ‘al Qaeda representative’” to a store in Dade County, Florida to purchase a memory chip for a digital camera to be used for taking reconnaissance photographs of the FBI building. The document does not say who paid for the chip, but there is hardly room for doubt.

What is the government’s motive in manufacturing such a plot? Whose interests are served? Under conditions in which the majority of the American people have turned against the Iraq war and support the withdrawal of American troops, the Bush administration is desperately attempting to once again link its neo-colonial venture in Iraq with a supposed “global war on terror” waged to defend the American people against another 9/11.

To sustain such a fiction, fresh evidence of terrorist threats is periodically required. And it has been forthcoming on a regular basis. Every several months another “conspiracy” is unveiled, invariably involving an FBI informant and hapless individuals ensnared in a plot orchestrated by the government." http://www.asiantribune.com/index.php?q=node/738

I heard in one report that it was the ‘al Qaeda representative’ himself that furnished the car that was providing the transportation, but have not been able to confirm that.

Don't blame the FBI?? Who else but the FBI is cultivating these kinds of groups??

[Sonart]

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Quote by: Zeebedee snipped "The four-count indictment presented by the Justice Department in a Miami federal court on Friday contains not a single indication of an overt criminal act or even the means to carry one out. The brief 11-page document consists almost entirely of alleged statements made by the defendants to the FBI informant, referred to in quotes throughout the indictment as “the al Qaeda representative.”

So what? If they'd pulled in Mohammed Atta while he was still in flight school, what would they have had on him?

Quote by: Zeebedee What is the government’s motive in manufacturing such a plot? Whose interests are served?

To see exactly how motivated and how far the suspects were willing to carry out their conspiracy. The fact that they believed the undercover was an al-Qaeda representative says a great deal and they were obviously willing to follow through. He didn't convince them to do anything, he simply facilitiated and guaged the extent of what they already wanted to do. And they swore an oath to al-Qaeda on their own, and that speaks to their motivation and intent. Better they did it with the FBI than to simply turn them loose to attempt plan B with someone else who could have helped them actually make something happen, even if it wasn't as ambitious as the Sears Tower.

If it had been a gang of skinheads wanting to carry out a Columbine style attack, would you fault the FBI for playing the roll of an Aryan Nation gun dealer who shared their views and wanted to guage the extent of their committment to carry out the plot?

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