Judge Shot At Reno Courthouse

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: RickSp Other than the mistake regarding "high powered" vs"high velocity", which seems pretty trivial to me, ...

It wasn't a "mistake", it was a deliberate attempt to shape public opinion of the weapon involved. When was the last time you saw the media report a shooting involving a low-powered, or low-velocity gun?

Quote by: RickSp I would also be interested in how you might generalize the actions of an apparent murderer and sniper into a broader statement about the legal system.

Like I said, a legal system that is unresponsive to the average citizen, and that favors those able to afford the best lawyers may be driving people like this guy into seeking another sort of justice. Please note that I didn't attempt to condone or justify the shooting, I only pointed out what might have precipitated it.

[Osborn F Enready]

Rick said: Then I ask you to read the two sentences that has Osborn so upset. Other than the mistake regarding "high powered" vs"high velocity", which seems pretty trivial to me, please explain how the rest of the two sentences is either innaccurate or represents a "biased news report".

I say:
Simple.

First, they report that it is the "same type" of weapon used by the recent snipers who terrorized many citizens. (ooooo bad gun!!!! shame on you gun!!!!!)

Then, they call it a sniper rifle, which it is not. (The AR-15, M-16, M-4 and all of the similar variants can be used for sniping SHORT RANGE, which is why they are preferred by some suburban law enforcement, even though almost all use a variation of .308 NATO Remington 700 style rifles for sniping and interdiction team coverage. The .223 is a versatile round, but a sniper round it is not, unless you are sniping muskrat or other small critters.)

Then, they call it a "high-powered" rifle of all things, which it is not. (since my .22 Rimfire is High Velocity does that make it a high powered rifle too??) LOL

But hey, no bias there......

I must be a fetishist huh?

[gr8fuldaniel]

I tend to agree with Os on this.

But I do have a couple of questions:

Isnt "high powered" a reference to the amount of powder? Technically, a 12 gauge might be considered "high powered", hardly a sniper weapon (unless the sniper is fleet of foot )

A few shotguns have rifled barrels ...... But nobody would call it a high powered rifle.

but I would call it High Powered, not necessarily high velocity.

As for the term "Sniper weapon" , with this kind of grouping:

The Bushmaster Varminter was able to group three shots into 1/4" at 100 yards with regularity using the super-accurate Barnes VLC bullets. The worst groups shot from the bench rest were 3/4" at 100 yards! The representative 1/4" group shown above (that's a DIME shown for comparison!) show the Varminter to be one seriously accurate rifle! http://www.gunblast.com/Bushmaster_Varminter.htm

....and a hollw point, wouldnt it deserve some respect?

Edit to add:
Heres the bullet data

(the one that produced the 1/4" group pictured): Lake City cases, 26 grains of AA2460 powder, CCI primer, and a Barnes 50 grain VLC bullet.

[RickSp]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready I say: Simple. First, they report that it is the "same type" of weapon used by the recent snipers who terrorized many citizens. (ooooo bad gun!!!! shame on you gun!!!!!) Then, they call it a sniper rifle, which it is not. (The AR-15, M-16, M-4 and all of the similar variants can be used for sniping SHORT RANGE, which is why they are preferred by some suburban law enforcement, even though almost all use a variation of .308 NATO Remington 700 style rifles for sniping and interdiction team coverage. The .223 is a versatile round, but a sniper round it is not, unless you are sniping muskrat or other small critters.) Then, they call it a "high-powered" rifle of all things, which it is not. (since my .22 Rimfire is High Velocity does that make it a high powered rifle too??) LOL But hey, no bias there...... I must be a fetishist huh?

Jaysus, all that ranting for two sentences? You get so bent out of shape over that?

The gun is the same weapon used by Muhammed and Malvo. That is completely true, even if you get bent out of shape by the fact.

Your rant about the "sniper rifle" label is bullshit and dishonest as you yourself seem to know that many police departments use .223 rifles as sniper rifles. From snipercentral.com: "In certain conditions, like MOUT (urban) environments or in situations where one is wishing to extend the range of the fire team or squad, a precision .223 rifle makes a lot of sense and if one's team is familiar with the M16/M4/AR platform, than a precision AR rifle is the ticket."

Of course if you really want to claim that the Bushmaster is not a functional sniper rifle, then I guess Muhammed and Malvoy didn't actually shoot all those people? If you are going to be so stupidly technical as to claim that because it doesn't fit your foolish definitions, that it cannot be used as a sniper rifle, wel that is your problem.

And I agree the writer should have said high velocity, not high powered. Big fucking deal.

But rant away. I've wasted enough time with your irrational reaction to two, count-em, two sentences.

[RickSp]

Quote by: gr8fuldaniel I tend to agree with Os on this. But I do have a couple of questions: Isnt "high powered" a reference to the amount of powder? Technically, a 12 gauge might be considered "high powered", hardly a sniper weapon (unless the sniper is fleet of foot ) A few shotguns have rifled barrels ...... But nobody would call it a high powered rifle. but I would call it High Powered, not necessarily high velocity. As for the term "Sniper weapon" , with this kind of grouping: ....and a hollw point, wouldnt it deserve some respect? Edit to add: Heres the bullet data

LOL Dan. Shotgun? Where in hell did you get that? The Bushmaster is a semi-automatic rifle that proved very deadly when used in suburban Washington by a team of snipers. It is no shotgun.

[gr8fuldaniel]

Quote by: RickSp LOL Dan. Shotgun? Where in hell did you get that? The Bushmaster is a semi-automatic rifle that proved very deadly when used in suburban Washington by a team of snipers. It is no shotgun.

Read it again Einstein. I never said it was a shotgun.

[RickSp]

Quote by: Zeebadee It wasn't a "mistake", it was a deliberate attempt to shape public opinion of the weapon involved. When was the last time you saw the media report a shooting involving a low-powered, or low-velocity gun?

So you can read the reporter's mind now? The point of the two sentences was to communicate that the sniper owned the same gun as used by Muhammed and Malvo. This is completely accurate. Or do you consider telling the truth in this case to be anti-gun propaganda too.

Quote by: Zeebadee Like I said, a legal system that is unresponsive to the average citizen, and that favors those able to afford the best lawyers may be driving people like this guy into seeking another sort of justice. Please note that I didn't attempt to condone or justify the shooting, I only pointed out what might have precipitated it.

The suspect is a millionaire. He had excellent attorneys representing him in family court. Read the link I posted. So he wa not one of those driven crazy because he could not afford the best attorney. If I ever get into trouble I would love to be able to afford Dahlia Litwick as my attorney.

You also ignore or at least do not address the murder of his wife. Is that the system's fault too?

[RickSp]

Quote by: gr8fuldaniel Read it again Einstein. I never said it was a shotgun.

You are exactly right. Your comments where sufficiently garbled so it was hard to see what you intended. Surprise, surprise.

Quote by: gr8fuldaniel Isnt "high powered" a reference to the amount of powder? Technically, a 12 gauge might be considered "high powered", hardly a sniper weapon (unless the sniper is fleet of foot ) A few shotguns have rifled barrels ...... But nobody would call it a high powered rifle.

"High powered" is a reference to the number of joules of energy, or the mass of the bullet times the muzzle velocity squared. "High powered" rifles about have a muzzle energy of roughly 3,000-4,000 joules whereas the Bushmaster is more in the 1,500 to 2,500 joule range.

In an urban setting the Bushmaster works just fine as a sniper rifle as Malvo and Muhammed demonstrated.

[Osborn F Enready]

Gr8ful said: Isnt "high powered" a reference to the amount of powder?

I say:
This is exactly what I wanted to point out about the media.

They use terminology, often wrongly, to "freak out" the un-informed. They say high-power rifle (talking about a typical .223 chambered, AR style rifle, which is technically an intermediate round in an intermediate rifle style.) when it is by no means a high powered rifle. The NRA has created a class of competition called "NRA Highpower Rifle" which was designed around the 30-06 chambered 1903 Springfield. The 30-06 is a true high-power rifle round, unlike the intermediate chambered .223.

What the "media" should have said, to be ACCURATE, would have been a standard-issue service type rifle. Standard issue, doesn't sound nearly as flashy, glitzy or commercial as "high-powered" so they say "high-powered" even though THEY SHOULD KNOW BY NOW how to say what they mean. They also could have said high-velocity rifle, but that didn't sound menacing enough. They have a rigid anti-gun agenda in my opinion, based on historical evidence of repeated abuse of terminology, descriptions, and use of inaccurate pictures for what they are talking about.

These are the stats for an M4-A3, .223 service rifle.
SPECIFICATIONS:
Caliber: .223 Remington
Magazine Capacity: 30 Rounds (accepts all M16 type)
Overall Length: 33.5 inches
Length - Stock Retracted: 30.25 inches
Barrel Length: 14.5 inches
Rifling Twist: 1 turn in 9"
Weight without magazine: 5.994 Lbs.
Weight of empty magazine: .25 Lbs.
Weight of loaded magazine: 1.0 Lbs.
Cyclic Rate of Fire: 700 - 950 Rounds per Minute (Full Auto Model)
Mode of Operation:
Semi-Auto Only/Full Automatic or Semi Auto/3 Shot Burst
Muzzle Velocity:
M193 - 55 gr.: 3065 ft./sec.
M855/SS109/C77 - 62 gr.: 2910 ft./sec.
Muzzle Energy:
M193 - 55 gr.: 1145 ft.lbs.
M855/SS109/C77 - 62 gr. 1165 ft.lbs.

All terms below quoted from Midway USA, Gun Tec Dictionary: (emphasis added by me in underline)
https://www.midwayusa.com/guntecdict...ng?TermID=3554

Definition for "NRA Highpower Rifle": A centerfire rifle competition that grew from the military qualification course for the 1903 Springfield. Today, NRA Highpower has one of the highest number of participants of all shooting sports. The competition consists of four events: slow fire at 200 yards while standing, rapid fire at 200 yards while sitting, rapid fire at 300 yards while prone and slow fire at 600 yards while prone. Their are two categories of NRA Highpower, one for 'free rifles' called 'Match', and one for rifles limited to military-esque features called 'Service'. The annual championships are held every August at the Camp Perry Military Reservation in Port Clinton, Ohio. Definition for "high power cartridge": 1. A term frequently used in competition settings to denote a centerfire cartridge; 2. A term once used to describe a cartridge designed to produces a muzzle velocity of ver 2000 feet per second. Definition for "high velocity load": 1. In sporting use, a cartridge that is designed produce a muzzle velocity of over 3000 feet per second; 2. A US military term for small arms ammunition designed to produce a muzzle velocity lying between 3500 and 5000 feet per second.

Some people would take this opprotunity to learn, but Rick will probably just still argue and say I am wrong instead.

Gr8ful said: As for the term "Sniper weapon" , with this kind of grouping and a hollw point, wouldnt it deserve some respect?

I say:
It deserves a lot of respect, for what it is. But a sniper rifle it is not, nor a high-powered rifle.

Sniping territory doesn't even start until 500 yards. Anything under 500 yards is a marksmens class.
Once again, the media mis-using terminology.

The .223 is effective at hitting paper at long range due to its lightweight projectile that travels at high velocity, kept stable by a well designed boat-tail round and relatively flat trajectory. At 500 yards however, you start seeing it "LETHALITY" drop off, and by 700 yards it is really not very effective. Once again, as a paper shredder, the .223 is ok up to near 750 yards. As a manstopper, it stops around 600 yards. Sniping takes place between 500 yards and up, giving a very narrow window of use for the .223 as a sniper weapon.

Police, and SWAT "snipers" as they are called, are actually marksmen as employed most often, since it is usually urban scenarios with heavy cover, under 300 yards. In clear conditions, with no obstructions (glass, shrubs, etc) the .223 is tactically employed. If there are any types of obstruction, or if the range could vary over 300 yards, the true sniper rifles come out, usually in the form of a Remington 700 model, in .308 with sealed, individually measured, cased and lotted match ammunition.

A comparison here for you:

From "The Ultimate Sniper" by Maj. John Plaster USAR (Ret.) Informal Media Penetration Test pg. 129 1st line will represent 5.56 m193 ammo, 2nd line will represent 7.62 m80 ammo....... Military Sandbags 100yds -- fail Military Sandbags 100yds -- fail Helmet w/ liner 200yds MAX Helmet w/ liner 400yds easy Concrete H-Block 200yds MAX Concrete H-Block 300yds MAX 4" Layer of Pine 400yds barely 4" Layer of Pine 400yds easy 1/8" Sheet Steel 100yds MAX 1/8" Sheet Steel 300yds easy 1/4" Boiler Plate 100yds MAX 1/4" Boiler Plate 200yds MAX Car Door '68 Dodge 300yds barely Car Door '68 Dodge 400yds easy. From the above, you can reason that the .308 penetrates better and easier. From likely engagement scenarios the only cover you can assume that will likely save your ass from either round would be a properly constructed sandbag bunker. As enemy engagement from a single person at greater than 100yds will likely get you dead in a hurry.

.308 is one of the most accurate rounds you can fire out of a rifle. Thats why the Armed forces gives out the M-24(Military Sniper Rifle) in .308 you can engage targets out to 800-1000 meters in the right conditions with FULL lethality.

[Osborn F Enready]

Rick said: Jaysus, all that ranting for two sentences? You get so bent out of shape over that?

I say:
Do you get mad when someone tries telling you that blue is red? White is black? Same difference, and what makes it worse is that the media does it to suit an A-G-E-N-D-A.

Rick said: The gun is the same weapon used by Muhammed and Malvo. That is completely true, even if you get bent out of shape by the fact.

I say:
I agree it is the same "type" of gun, and it was JUST AS MISREPRESENTED IN THAT MEDIA COVERAGE on the Malvo case.

Why did the media AGAIN mis-represent the rifle? ( a soon-coming revamp and re-application of the soon to be released modified assault weapon ban, which is EXACTLY what the AR styled weapons are, assault weapons? Any bets that the media will call them assault weapons when they are trying to pass the bill, instead of sniper or high-powered weapons?)

All it was is more fear mongering by the press, to turn the un-informed against "scary looking, rifles" that turn average people into killers of wave after wave of people, which, in reality, that "weapon" doesn't exist, but sick people do. It is not the weapons fault, it is the sick people who buy them and MIS-use them.

Rick said: quoting: "In certain conditions, like MOUT (urban) environments or in situations where one is wishing to extend the range of the fire team or squad, a precision .223 rifle makes a lot of sense and if one's team is familiar with the M16/M4/AR platform, than a precision AR rifle is the ticket."

I say:
Notice how they specify urban? Notice how they stress that it makes sense "if they already have training on AR platform rifles? Notice how they are calling them fire teams, and squads and NOT snipers, because they AREN'T snipers?

Under 500 yards is marksmen territory, though many police marksmen have some previous or shared training with actual "snipers". I only know of a couple instances where "sniping" was employed by police forces, as "sniping" only takes place over 500 yards. Police use marksmen for covering entry teams, and if forced, target elimination in a hostage situation. They are often called snipers, and even they "enjoy" the use of the term, but most military snipers would chuckle.

Rick said: And I agree the writer should have said high velocity, not high powered. Big fucking deal.

I say:
Yea, and Bush should say Nuclear as opposed to Nukyahlur, but big deal right? Mis-use of the language and terminology is a sign of one of two things..... Ignorance, or agenda.

Rick said: Of course if you really want to claim that the Bushmaster is not a functional sniper rifle, then I guess Muhammed and Malvoy didn't actually shoot all those people?

I say:
What was the longest distance they engaged targets from? Over 500 yards?

Even if it was over 500 yards, it doesn't make their INTERMEDIATE RIFLE suddenly turn into a HIGH-POWERED SNIPER RIFLE!!!!

Nice tactic Rick, even lower than I thought you would go. So if I disagree with YOU, I am trying to say Malvo and Muhammed didn't actually kill people? LOL..... And you say I am the irrational, ranter.

Rick said: "High powered" is a reference to the number of joules of energy, or the mass of the bullet times the muzzle velocity squared. "High powered" rifles about have a muzzle energy of roughly 3,000-4,000 joules whereas the Bushmaster is more in the 1,500 to 2,500 joule range.

I say:
Thanks for proving your own catch in the media bias.

[gr8fuldaniel]

Thanx Os!
That clears it up very well.

[Osborn F Enready]

Gr8ful said: Thanx Os! That clears it up very well.

I say:
No problem Dan. I know there are people out there that actually WANT to know, unlike some who just "want to be right" at all costs. You know, coincidence theorists.

[RickSp]

You are hopeless Osbourn, overreacting to two sloppily written sentences, seeing evil AGENDAS everywhere. By your definitions Malvo and Muhammed were not snipers. Tell that the famlies of their victims. I'm sure it will make a big difference to them. And unless I am mistaken, the rifles in question were not the same type but the same model.

So you take offense at being called a fire arms fetishist and then go off on this bizarre rant? Get a grip.

And no one seems to give a rat's ass about the victims. I think that I am the only one who has even mentioned the murdered ex-wife and mother. And the clear implication behind the thread is that the judge had it coming, offhanded protestations to the contrary notwithstanding.

A millionaire murders his ex-wife with a knife and then shoots a judge with a rifle, yet from this thread you might think he was the victim. Or that the real issue was whether his rifle had been accurately by the media. What a sick joke.

[Osborn F Enready]

Rick said: By your definitions Malvo and Muhammed were not snipers.

I say:
Correct. They were conspiring gunmen, using hit-and-run guerilla techniques on an unarmed populace. They were shooters, who used limited range to their advantage for concealment, but they were not snipers. They employed typical guerilla warfare tactics, against unarmed people, for the purpose of instilling fear in the populace.

So no, they were not snipers, and NO, not by MY terms, by THE TERMS.

Rick said: Tell that the famlies of their victims.

I say:
Oh, now I am Ann Coulter? I am a bad guy because the media coined the wrong term for the shooters, and the victims famillies are somehow now being shown some less dignity because I dare to address it? Isn't that a nice tactic you have there Rick?

The famillies only know they lost a loved one, due to the acts of two people who purposely sought out to kill random unarmed civillians. The media coined the term sniper, wrongly so. The victims famillies picked up the term and ran with it, since the media coined it. The victims famillies probably don't care if you call the shooters Llamas as opposed to snipers, gunmen, madmen, or any other form of showing what they are, all they know is they lost a loved one due to a pair of armed and angry people who had no respect for human life, or un-armed civillians going about their daily routines.

Rick said: And no one seems to give a rat's ass about the victims. I think that I am the only one who has even mentioned the murdered ex-wife and mother.

I say:
Oh you are such the champion of victims rights and sensitivities aren't you Rick.

I hereby nominate you for the "National Medal of Freedom".

I didn't realize silence on a topic meant I was automatically "opposed". I forgot though, guilty until proven innocent in your eyes, right Rick?

OF COURSE I feel for the victims famillies, whether or not he "deserved" it. Just because I don't spell it out, I am automatically caste as a "victim hater"? PLEASE!

Rick said: What a sick joke.

I say:
Yes, most of your end of the debate has been.

I didn't start this Rick, you did, and I countered.

I posted my thoughts, you countered, and I responded.

Go back, read the thread Rick. This has gone exactly where you knew it would when the remarks about my "ranting about guns" and accusations of fetishism and bias came from your fingers.

I played along because I like proving my point, and proving you wrong, as usual.

[RickSp]

Sure Oz, your definitions matter more than reality. Look up "sniper" in the dictionary, why don't you? No don't bother.

[Osborn F Enready]

Look at the history of the word sniper Rick, and where "snipers" operate. Talk to a Sniper, read books written by snipers, understand and respect the role and goals of a sniper, and then you might have a clue to what you are talking about, as opposed to what "the online dickshunary" is telling you, and you are repeating without err.

[RickSp]

I knew asking you to open a dictionary would be too much to ask. Just what I expected. Don't complain about others using language to advance their agendas when your own defintions do not conform to common usage.

[Osborn F Enready]

Common usage by operators, or booksellers?

[Matt W]

Enough. Take it to PM. :rolleyes:

Do not respond to me within this thread. PM myself or Sean with any questions.