Bush: If Marines killed civilians, they'll be punished

[Apeman81]

Quote by: RickSp The US military has acknowledged as much. The ongoing investigation is determining responsibility, not whether anything happened. I guess you don't believe the military either. This is boring Ape. First you call those of us outraged by the massacre, traitors "justif[ing] and embolden[ing] the actions of the terrorist forces", and now you slip into full denial mode. Pretty lame. Well at least you aren't claiming that Americans machine gunned Nazi prisoners in WWII like your buddy O'Reilly. Now that is really stupid. Why Haditha Matters

No one has "acknowledged as much." They are now investigating. We do not know hat happened or how. Let's see what comes out of the wash.

As far as calling anyone a traitor, if the shoe fits....

To leap to the conclusion of guilt, to rush to the judgment of official cover-up, to taint the entire military by the actions of a few, and to consistently assert illegitimacy of their actions in general does absolutely nothing but embolden an enemy and justify whatever actions they take to expel the "illegitimate occupiers" of "their” country.

If you equate such to being a traitor, then that is on you.

After all, these few thousand “insurgents”, all of which are Iraqi born citizens, by the way, represent the 25 million other citizens in their actions.

[Sonart]

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Quote by: Marilyn Monroe Far as I know civilians all know they are not to come too close to US soldiers. They know the rules. We've been there a while.

The folks at Haditha were in their own homes. What would you have them do?

Quote by: Marilyn Monroe I don't know why the US would want to publicize this, but the insurgents certainly would and have. It's possible this was a set up.

The US wants to publicize it exactly because the insurgents would. We sermonize to the world the values of an open, democratic and just society. How can we then commit crimes with impunity and bury it? If it's going to get out anyway, isn't it to our advantage to be on top of it, openly?

Quote by: Marilyn Monroe You can go back to any war and find attrocities. That's war, and unfortunately we are in one. I don't like it that we are there, but we need to quit fueling the fire over everything, and have some trust in our government.

Like we trusted them that we had good reasons -- WMD -- for going to war? Like we trusted them that there'd be no insurgency and our troops would be home by Christmas? Like we trusted them that we'd promptly rebuild Iraq - and Afghanistan - into happy allies? I think the Bush League has pretty much spent it's trust capital.

Apparently when young George was galavanting around in his ANG Champagne Squadron, he missed the lessons about how war is all hell.... and that fighting against a guerilla insurgency is all hell indefinitely.


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[PatrickHenry]

Good article from CBS, Rick. Accurate analysis on why we need to look closely at assaults against civilians in Iraq. And why the Bush Doctrine of tyrannical Empire needs to be reversed.

[RickSp]

Quote by: Apeman81 As far as calling anyone a traitor, if the shoe fits.... To leap to the conclusion of guilt, to rush to the judgment of official cover-up, to taint the entire military by the actions of a few, and to consistently assert illegitimacy of their actions in general does absolutely nothing but embolden an enemy and justify whatever actions they take to expel the "illegitimate occupiers" of "their” country.

If the shoe fits... so typical. It is that sort of cheap insult that makes me wonder where your head fits.

Your rant about "tainting the military by the actions of the few" is just more nonsense. Your consistent denial and willingness to cover for the murderers of children is far more damaging to the military than those of us asking that it meet its own standards.

Your other consistant rant, that anyone who doesn't wear your particular set of blinders "emboldens the enemy" is laughable at best. Do you really believe something that stupid or are you just repeating it out of habit? I am sure that the insurgents in Anbar go to their local internet cafe every morning to see what we are saying on Volconvo before they decide whether or not continue their fight. Sure. No doubt about it.

[RickSp]

Quote by: PatrickHenry Good article from CBS, Rick. Accurate analysis on why we need to look closely at assaults against civilians in Iraq. And why the Bush Doctrine of tyrannical Empire needs to be reversed.

Thanks Pat. It was on the CBS site, but was a reprint from the Nation, a very good magazine.

[Sonart]

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Quote by: Apeman To leap to the conclusion of guilt, to rush to the judgment of official cover-up, to taint the entire military by the actions of a few, and to consistently assert illegitimacy of their actions in general does absolutely nothing but embolden an enemy and justify whatever actions they take to expel the "illegitimate occupiers" of "their” country.

The only way not to "taint the entire military by the actions of a few" is to promptly, vigorously and openly prosecute those few. Covering it up or rationalizing it simply smacks of arrogance and callous indifference.

As far as emboldening the enemy, we're screwed either way. If we sweep it under the rug, we just enrage more Iraqis and swell the ranks of an already growing insurgency. If that seems unfair to the poor dumb Marine sunzubitches caught in the crossfire, hey... Dear Leader was warned that invading Iraq was an invitation to an endless guerilla quagmire, and things like this are what happens in guerilla quagmires.

After all, we are illegitimate occupiers of their country.

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[Apeman81]

[quote=Sonart]. The only way not to "taint the entire military by the actions of a few" is to promptly, vigorously and openly prosecute those few. Covering it up or rationalizing it simply smacks of arrogance and callous indifference."

Before we can prosecute, we must first establish if their has been a punishable offense, and determine who has committed that act. Otherwise, agreed

"As far as emboldening the enemy, we're screwed either way. If we sweep it under the rug, we just enrage more Iraqis and swell the ranks of an already growing insurgency. If that seems unfair to the poor dumb Marine sunzubitches caught in the crossfire, hey... Dear Leader was warned that invading Iraq was an invitation to an endless guerilla quagmire, and things like this are what happens in guerilla quagmires."

"Screwed either way" has little to do with this incident and much more to do with the entire idea that the overthrow of Saddam and stabilization of a new government in Iraq is, as you say, an illegitimate act. After invading another country, Saddam agreed to terms of a ceasefire that he did not live up to. That in and of itself is grounds for the resumption of hostilities. You can disagree as to whether this case warranted this, but the fact remains that it was an option.

"After all, we are illegitimate occupiers of their country."

Agree to disagree on this, as explained above.

[Scribbler1]

Quote by: bishop i don't understand why fox keeps him on the payroll - especially since he's the media's equivalent to pat robertson.. when it comes to pundits that babble complete nonsense, nobody does it better than o'reilly.

Why? Blowreilly is still on FOX for the same reason Robertson still has a following. There are people in this country wo listen to, and respect the opinions of these men. There are people on this FORUM who do the same.

This is simply another reason I am firmly convinced this country has died. It just doesn't know enough to fall over.

[dreamer]

A US military investigation has found there was no misconduct by US troops over Iraqi civilian deaths in the town of Ishaqi, defence officials say.
This follows allegations that 11 people were deliberately shot by troops during a raid on a house in March.
The events in Ishaqi, north of Baghdad, are among a number of alleged atrocities by US troops in Iraq.
In the wake of the alleged massacre in Haditha, US troops are starting extra training in moral and ethical values.
Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri Maliki has criticised coalition forces for what he described as habitual attacks against civilians. link http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/5042036.stm well thats normal.Dreamer

[Marilyn Monroe]

Quote by: Scribbler1 And it's THEIR country. If it was propaganda why did we cover it up? No we are not. This is an occupation and NOT a war. If you are right, who are we fighting in Iraq? Global terrorists who were not even THERE before we invaded? We are fighting people who want us out of their country as far as I can see. Where are the international bands of Iraqi terror groups? Would you like US to "lose steam" if the US were occupied by foreign invaders? If you haven't seen anything have you counted the possibility that there is NOTHING positive to REPORT?? If you now about these positive things this is the time to say something. If you DON'T know about any positives why do you fault the media for not reporting something you know nothing about?

The allegations will be reviewed.

Read this about our occupations and the differences.

http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/...atization.html

I don't know the positives cause I never hear anything positive. WWII was very positive for the most part. We didn't have TV announcing all the casualties. Could you imagine what would have happened if Normandy had been on the TV? I think fighting anything with the media so down our throats is going to be pretty hard, especially if things get difficult.

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: Marilyn Monroe WWII was very positive for the most part. We didn't have TV announcing all the casualties. Could you imagine what would have happened if Normandy had been on the TV? I think fighting anything with the media so down our throats is going to be pretty hard, especially if things get difficult.

Yeah, just how can you have a good war if the pesky media is right there to show everybody what the costs are?? Imagine how much longer we could have strung out the Vietnam war if the media had reported only the "good" news. Why, I'll bet we could have broken the 100,000 GI death barrier if the media had just kept a lid on things. And the sky could have been the limit on civilian deaths. We're gonna have to get the media under stricter control if we're going to keep this war going, this kind of reporting could end up spoiling Halliburton's bottom line.

[shield772]

Quote by: RickSp We know about it because Time magazine reported it. Otherwise we might never have learned about it. Ironically, the story has apparently been widely circulated by Al Qaeda since it happened in November. A fine piece of propoganda to recruit more fighters to kill more American soldiers. Time to support our troops, for a change, and bring them home from this illegal and pointless war.

It is neither Illegal nor pointless.

[shield772]

Quote by: Scribbler1 This is a question I have asked myself as well. Considering the fact that the Bush administration is reportedly the most secretive in modern history, WHY can Time or anyone else find out about this? But then again, since this administration has botched almost everything else it has been involved in...

How do you say the most secretive in modern history? FDR kept secret the creation of the worlds most destructive weapon, reporters were threatened if they even attempted to dig into that story, the secretary of war and the chairman of the joint chiefs even threatened a US Senator for asking questions about it, so most secretive I don't think so.

[RickSp]

Quote by: shield772 It is neither Illegal nor pointless.

According to the Nuremberg Principles established largely by the US after WWII defined "aggressive war" as a war crime. German general were sentenced at Nuremburg for precisley this crime. The invasion of Iraq is an aggressive war inthat it was not in response to an attack and did not constitute self defense. It also violates the UN Charter. "The United Nations Secretary-General Kofi Annan has told the BBC the US-led invasion of Iraq was an illegal act that contravened the UN charter." (I know that conversatives only like the UN when they can use it justify aggressive war.)

The only one whos will benefit from Bush's nasty little war are the Islamists. Several retired generals have referred to the invasion and occupation as "the worst foreign policy disaster" in American history. They are right. So I suppose the war isn't completely pointless. Its has benefitted the terrorists and expanded presidential power while eroding individual liberties. So it has been a good thing for terrorists and would be despots.

[shield772]

The US does not now nor has it ever and I pray to God never run our business on the say so of the UN, I will not go into my feelings on the UN here, but to answer the Illegal claim, Bush asked congress, congress voted and gave the Presiden authorization for the invasion and have never rescinded it and keep funding it, so it is by US law lagal.

[PatrickHenry]

Quote by: RickSp ...I suppose the war isn't completely pointless. Its has benefitted the terrorists and expanded presidential power...

Some good profits for a handful of rich folks...

[Apeman81]

Quote by: Zeebadee Yeah, just how can you have a good war if the pesky media is right there to show everybody what the costs are?? Imagine how much longer we could have strung out the Vietnam war if the media had reported only the "good" news. Why, I'll bet we could have broken the 100,000 GI death barrier if the media had just kept a lid on things. And the sky could have been the limit on civilian deaths. We're gonna have to get the media under stricter control if we're going to keep this war going, this kind of reporting could end up spoiling Halliburton's bottom line.

Gee! Imagine the cost of NOT fighting the Nazis in WWII

[RickSp]

Quote by: shield772 The US does not now nor has it ever and I pray to God never run our business on the say so of the UN, I will not go into my feelings on the UN here, but to answer the Illegal claim, Bush asked congress, congress voted and gave the Presiden authorization for the invasion and have never rescinded it and keep funding it, so it is by US law lagal.

By the ratification of a treaty, the treaty becomes part of US law. Violating international law is indeed breaking US law. Of course just because it is illegal doesn't mean than Bush won't get away with it just as the cowards in Congress who unconstitutionally delegated their war powers to our Mad King have gotten away with that too.

[RickSp]

Quote by: Apeman81 Gee! Imagine the cost of NOT fighting the Nazis in WWII

Of course, we were attacked by the Axis and Germany did declare war on us. Neither Iran nor Vietnam attacked us or were any imminent threat to us.

But hey, why not waste billions and billions of dollars, see tens of thousands of good Americans killed or maimed, while make the rest of the world hate us? Sounds like great fun, if you have completely lost your mind.

[Saint Vern]

Quote by: PatrickHenry Yeah. Punish the triggermen, but conceal the atrocity mindset of an occupation that didn't have to happen. It figures.

That is some funny non-thinking, Hank.