Bush: If Marines killed civilians, they'll be punished

[ForwardMotion]

Quote by: RickSp Iraq PM impatient with US troops killing civilians

I believe that whenever one is to judge what these troops have and are doing wrongly...although techincally they may be right...they must fully understand the pressure that these troops are going through. When there's an enemy that is one day speaking to you from an Iraqi store as if he or she is a regular civilian to later that day be the same one planting and digging bombs in use against you it's clear that this can be very frustrating for anyone...let alone those fighting to try and defend them.

[tipper 11]

Okay, but if the Bush administration had not purposely mislead the UN into believing that Saddam had WMD's (Downing Street Memo), we wouldn't be there. Basically, since we got this war started under false pretexts doesn't that make every death in Iraq over the past 3-1/2 years murder and treason?

I'd really like to know if anyone can answer that, because I don't know.

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: ForwardMotion I believe that whenever one is to judge what these troops have and are doing wrongly...although techincally they may be right...they must fully understand the pressure that these troops are going through. When there's an enemy that is one day speaking to you from an Iraqi store as if he or she is a regular civilian to later that day be the same one planting and digging bombs in use against you it's clear that this can be very frustrating for anyone...let alone those fighting to try and defend them.

Yeah, it was a hot, humid day, and the Marines had already lost one of their own guys. So what if they decided to blow off a little steam and shoot up a couple dozen civilians? It's not like they were real people, after all. We're gonna save these people and bring democracy to Iraq if we have to kill every last one of them to do it. If we have to destroy the village in order to save it, well, so be it.

[tipper 11]

I suppose the parents of the scapegoats feel lucky that their child is doing life instead of giving it for their country.

Like I said, this entire war is illegal. Every death has been murder and in my mind that is not the troops fault its the people who went in front of the United Nations and lied to get them into Iraq in the first place. This incident could not have happened otherwise.

[dreamer]

US President George W Bush has said he is "troubled" by reports of an alleged massacre of Iraqi civilians by US marines last November.
Making his first public comments on the issue, Mr Bush said if anyone had broken the law they would be punished.
His comments followed claims that the killings of 24 people in the town of Haditha were covered up.
On Tuesday, the US government promised to make public all the details of inquiries into the alleged massacre.
"If, in fact, these allegations are true, the Marine Corps will work hard to make sure that... those who violated the law - if indeed they did - will be punished," Mr Bush told a press conference in Washington.
The Pentagon is close to ending its two separate inquiries into the killings in Haditha, initially attributed to a clash with militants. Link if needed
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/5035176.stm .
Dreamer.

[taichibill]

I really feel sorry for the soldiers in Iraq, I cannot imagine the pressure and constant fear they live with every day. And after a while I am sure many of them wonder what in the hell they are doing there in the first place, seems no one really knows anymore. The marines will be scapegoats and of course nothing will happen to the policymakers, I wish that all who take part in a decision to go to war had to spend one tour of duty actually fighting that war as soldiers.

[brien]

There seems to be two issues here. An alleged massacre and the subsequent cover up. ALL parties should be given their day in a court of law. Not a kangaroo court, but a fair and impartial court of law. All the accused should be PRESUMED innocent until proven guilty. No one should have to prove their innocence. Even if some Marine officials have admitted responsibility, the alleged participants need to have their day in court.

See:http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/26/wo...26haditha.html

Personally, I believe ALL war has its attrocities, some covered up, some come to the light of day. It is only the ones that come to the light of day we can deal with here. There also seems to be a double standard. Some human rights activists convict the Marines in the media before their trial, yet when people are executed by others for wearing Tennis shorts,(http://www.abs-cbnnews.com/storypage.aspx?StoryId=39935) or people who get away with killing men women and children with IED's every day, I find it strange that the same critics seem to fall silent. The point here is everyone who commits attrocities needs to be prosecuted in a court of law. These marines should have rounded up the suspects involved in the initial IED expolsion, and turned them over to the authorities in Hiditha. If they acted as judge, jury and executioners, then they should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

A related problem here is the credibility of US troops in Iraq. When the Iraqi people see this type of behaviour, they immediately identify the troops as no better than the terrorists that act in the very same manner by planting IED bombs which kill innocent men women and children. Perhaps, this is even worse because the US soldiers are a foreign occupying army. Therefore, this kind of activity by US troops only serve to undermine the very ideals they are SUPPOSSEDLY there to help establish. I fully remember Viet Nam and this type of activity served to seriously undermine the credibility of US forces in the South and imo, help contibute to the defeat of the ARVN troops through negative propaganda.

This situation, and its information, has yet to be fully disclosed, so as the information evolves, I am certain we will see more to this than we know now. Yes, war has its attrocities, and those who commit them, as well as those who cover them up, and wherever the trail leads to those who are responsible, they should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Perhaps, this is the difference between the rules of law and the rules of terrorist warfare. Let the chips fall where they may and don't be surprised to see the US Troops in Iraq now all be painted with the same ugly terrorist brush. Will it ever end?

[Tony Clifton]

Since the defeat of Saddam's government & military we've been fighting an insurgence --- all of them are civilian.

The term civilian doesn't make folks any less combatants.

If this was being covered up why do we know so much about it? Especially enough to charge, convict & sentence?

[bishop]

i support the troops - i want to bring all of them home, rather than have them continue to fight and die in this pointless sham of a war.

it seems that the military initially did try to cover it up, and later changed its mind once it realized that the media wasn't going to simply drop the story. the more this war continues, the deeper the pit of hypocrisy and pointlessness becomes. like boetie said, bush has no business talking about honor or anything else - since his administration has pushed for this bogus war, pro-torture policies, near-total disregard for innocents killed (eg. they still don't count civilian casualties), etc...

as the ever-evolving rationale for iraq goes, why are we there now? it's not to protect ourselves against wmd's or humanitarian/nation-building escapades... it's because leaving would mean that iraq would collapse under the power vaccuum if we left - and that's one piss-poor reason for wasting more lives/treasure on war. it's also a situation where it's nearly impossible to develop a real exit strategy (the wait and see game is no strategy).

now we see more symbolism connecting this war to vietnam.. how can it possibly get better over there? i thought the insurgency was supposedly in its last throes, per dickhead cheney?

[RickSp]

Quote by: Tony Clifton If this was being covered up why do we know so much about it? Especially enough to charge, convict & sentence?

We know about it because Time magazine reported it. Otherwise we might never have learned about it.

Ironically, the story has apparently been widely circulated by Al Qaeda since it happened in November. A fine piece of propoganda to recruit more fighters to kill more American soldiers.

Time to support our troops, for a change, and bring them home from this illegal and pointless war.

[brien]

Quote by: bishop i support the troops - i want to bring all of them home, rather than have them continue to fight and die in this pointless sham of a war. it seems that the military initially did try to cover it up, and later changed its mind once it realized that the media wasn't going to simply drop the story. the more this war continues, the deeper the pit of hypocrisy and pointlessness becomes. like boetie said, bush has no business talking about honor or anything else - since his administration has pushed for this bogus war, pro-torture policies, near-total disregard for innocents killed (eg. they still don't count civilian casualties), etc... as the ever-evolving rationale for iraq goes, why are we there now? it's not to protect ourselves against wmd's or humanitarian/nation-building escapades... it's because leaving would mean that iraq would collapse under the power vaccuum if we left - and that's one piss-poor reason for wasting more lives/treasure on war. it's also a situation where it's nearly impossible to develop a real exit strategy (the wait and see game is no strategy). now we see more symbolism connecting this war to vietnam.. how can it possibly get better over there? i thought the insurgency was supposedly in its last throes, per dickhead cheney?

You are right on here. This so called war is is sucking millions and millions of dollars on a daily basis out of our pockets. Money we don't even have but have had to borrow from China, amoung others. Money we could be using for any number of domestic problems, not to mention the deficit, as you of all people, rightly understand.

The sooner the people of America understand we have landed right smack dab in the middle of another Viet Nam, trading rice patties for sand, the sooner the people will demonstrate en masse against the continuation of this war by voting out the incumbents who voted for this war. We must hold Presidents accountable to the Constitution and not allow them to commit Americans to war unless we have Congress DECLARE war. We should hold Congress accountable to DECLARE war and not pass resolutions to authorize the Executive to invade the sovereignty of other nations.

The US should begin serious disengagement, fund the rebuilding of the damage the war has cost Iraq, and turn the whole stinking mess over to the UN, minus American troops. And while we are at it, recall the troops home from foreign soil and tend to the business of protecting America from the enemies that will surely come knocking as we seal the borders against foreign invasions. And from the looks of it all, those invasions will indeed come.

[jose]

The My Lai massacre will always be associated with worldwide outrage and the loss of public support in the US for the Vietnam war. What happened in March 1968, when soldiers of Charlie Company, 11th brigade, Americal Division killed more than 300 villagers, did not become public knowledge until November 1969. The killing of 24 innocent Iraqis at Haditha on the Euphrates took place last November, and though reported in some detail since March, it is only now that the whole grim story, including the full death toll, is emerging. Even allowing for the uncertainties of an incomplete investigation, into the incident itself and a possible cover-up, this is without doubt another massacre that will be long remembered. US forces have killed many Iraqi non-combatants since March 2003, by being trigger-happy, by using overwhelming force in residential areas, and by sheer accident. But Haditha, where the alleged perpetrators were men of Kilo Company, 3rd battalion, 1st Marine Regiment, is the worst known incident involving the unprovoked killing of unarmed civilians.

It is a measure of the suffering of the Iraqi people since the overthrow of Saddam Hussein that it is also just another statistic. Insurgent car-bombings and suicide bombings regularly claim as many or many more lives in multiple attacks on a single day, while the increasingly sectarian nature of the conflict has seen mass executions of Shia Muslims by Sunnis and vice versa. Hundreds of civilians were killed in the US assaults on insurgents in Fallujah and Tall Afar. Still, Haditha may now come to supplant the Abu Ghraib prisoner abuse scandal as the single most damaging event of the occupation.

Official Washington has been too slow to understand what is at stake. President Bush is reported to have learned of the Haditha story only when media interest began. Publicity was also boosted by John Murtha, the stridently anti-war Democratic congressman. The Marine Corps initially attributed 15 civilian deaths to a car bombing and a subsequent firefight that left eight insurgents dead. But an investigation has shown that a larger number of Iraqis, including women and small children, were killed in cold blood in revenge for the death of one US soldier. There should be no rush to judgment, but the US military must keep its promise of a full, speedy and open investigation, prosecutions and severe punishment. The evasions and buck-passing of the Abu Ghraib affair cannot be tolerated, by Americans or anyone else. Shameful anomaly or part of a wider phenomenon, a war crime is a war crime.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...787314,00.html

[bishop]

we'll never get to the point where we fight wars only after congressional declarations if the dems/republicans continue to hold power. both of them support an executive branch that can act without compunction. i know i'm not voting for either of them, but i'm a pessimist - i think most people will continue to vote for the lesser of two horrible parties.

Quote by: brien The US should begin serious disengagement, fund the rebuilding of the damage the war has cost Iraq, and turn the whole stinking mess over to the UN, minus American troops. And while we are at it, recall the troops home from foreign soil and tend to the business of protecting America from the enemies that will surely come knocking as we seal the borders against foreign invasions. And from the looks of it all, those invasions will indeed come.

you think the u.n. would be up to the task? i'm sure you don't - i don't think they're capable/competent either.. it'll be just like previous u.n. peacekeeping missions a la the congo.. the other problem for our establishment is that when we leave, iraq and iran will be free to become solid allies - and the establishment definitely doesn't like the sound of that. gotta realize that the empire wants our country to be invaded by dirt poor mexicans, and that's why they haven't done anything to defend our borders. and since the empire wants control over the middle east, our troops are going to stay there until they're booted out of power (if that is even possible).

[jose]

http://www.informationclearinghouse....rticle5365.htm
U.S. Marines execute an Iraqi to the cheers of fellow marines


http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0521-01.htm
'US Soldiers Started to Shoot Us, One by One'


No arrest, no charges, no trial.
The US Army as judge, jury and executioner. http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2004/01/284086.html

http://mparent7777.livejournal.com/8757944.html
If he didn't answer the way we liked, we would shoot his youngest kid in the head.

shoot them all and let GOD sort them out?
these men twisted and tormented by their actions will come home to USA to find they have no veteran services support, some will top themselves, others will seek respite in a bottle,they will find little support in the community meanwhile ¨the decider¨ condemns their actions without saying that the whole war on Iraq is illegal

[bishop]

whatever happened to these great american values that we supposedly stood for? did they die immediately after ww2 (or korea)? imo, yes, they definitely did.



can't forget the sources talking about our usage of white phosphorus as well..

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4440664.stm

US troops used white phosphorus as a weapon in last year's offensive in the Iraqi city of Falluja, the US has said. "It was used as an incendiary weapon against enemy combatants," spokesman Lt Col Barry Venable told the BBC - though not against civilians, he said. The US had earlier said the substance - which can cause burning of the flesh - had been used only for illumination.

*oops, we didn't mean to go kill all those innocent civilians. my bad!*

the u.s. - ushering a new era of hope and democracy to iraq via shock & awe, abu ghraib, white phosphorus (also known as the fallujah massacre), haditha and other less-publicized atrocities...

[brien]

Quote by: bishop we'll never get to the point where we fight wars only after congressional declarations if the dems/republicans continue to hold power. both of them support an executive branch that can act without compunction. i know i'm not voting for either of them, but i'm a pessimist - i think most people will continue to vote for the lesser of two horrible parties. you think the u.n. would be up to the task? i'm sure you don't - i don't think they're capable/competent either.. it'll be just like previous u.n. peacekeeping missions a la the congo.. the other problem for our establishment is that when we leave, iraq and iran will be free to become solid allies - and the establishment definitely doesn't like the sound of that. gotta realize that the empire wants our country to be invaded by dirt poor mexicans, and that's why they haven't done anything to defend our borders. and since the empire wants control over the middle east, our troops are going to stay there until they're booted out of power (if that is even possible).

I know the UN isn't up to the task. That said, they should disband and reform under a new doctrine and leadership. Let's take back that building on the East River. That's prime real estate man! I also realize the US is responsible for the "new" Iraq which is why we need to exit asap. The "civil war" will always be possible as long as there are Sunnis in the minority that are bitter over being ousted along with Saddam by the US. They will have to eventually work out their representation problems in their government.

As far as Iraq and Iran becomming solid allies, that is their business, not the United States business. We should not try and prevent them from their own foreign alliances.

And yes, we should bring the military home to stop the invasion at the southern borders because this threat is greater than any threat from Iraq.

But to get the politicians to act responsibly, now there is the real problem.

[jose]

Will it be OK in future wars to use these same tactics against US troops and civilian's call them non military insergents lock them up with no red cross visits? this is worse than the Nazis

[bishop]

um... in what war have u.s. soldiers haven't been treated humanely by their captors? let's not let our empire bashing overshadow rationality here... did the red cross have access to tortured pow's in vietnam? not that i'm aware.. how many u.s. pow's have been returned alive from iraq? can't think of ever encountering any article about something like that. i know they like to chop peoples' heads off though...

[Apeman81]

As usual, the "America is always guilty" crowd is thumping and storming about, mindlessly furthering the enemy's cause by first automatically assigning guilt to the soldiers, and then assaulting the validity of their being there to begin with.

Whether you believe the ousting of Saddam from power in Iraq was justified or not, can you truly thereby justify and embolden the actions of the terrorist forces that are striving to topple the fledgling government elected to replace the demonstrably despotic Baathists?

[PatrickHenry]

No way, Apeman!

As long as Halli gets that oil going, who cares about a few dead Iraqi babies! M-16 bullets through the head? Well, SOMEBODY killed that Marine and maybe one of their fathers knew him, so they had to be executed, see? :eek: