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**Matt W** · May 19, 2006, 01:56 pm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4998770.stm

Quote:

Turkey's chief of staff has praised the demonstration held by thousands of Turks following the killing of a senior judge by an Islamist gunman.
General Hilmi Ozkok said the protests against Islamic militancy were admirable and urged compatriots to keep up their defence of the secular state.

The murdered judge was from the top administrative court, which has upheld state curbs on the Muslim headscarf.

Many of those at the funeral shouted insults at ministers attending.

The ruling Justice and Development party has Islamist roots

Boetie · May 20, 2006, 10:10 am

If the Kurds break free and become independent, this will have a ricochet effect on Turkey and may even blow Turkey's chances of getting into the EU.

The whole Kurd freedom could have such an impact on Turkey that it may result in a battle between the seculars and the fundies in the country of Turkey that could get messy.

Iraq I'm sure is having such a battle and there is no doubt a political battle between the secular and fundies going on in Iran.

This whole Iraq war is nothing but one big screw up.

bishop · May 20, 2006, 11:50 am

i'm a bit rusty on my turkish history, but i think their military has a track record of quashing islamist rebellions. their military is entirely dedicated to keeping turkey a secular state - even if it means imposing a temporary military coup.

Milton Bradley · May 20, 2006, 03:23 pm

Quote:

Quote by: bishop

i'm a bit rusty on my turkish history, but i think their military has a track record of quashing islamist rebellions. their military is entirely dedicated to keeping turkey a secular state - even if it means imposing a temporary military coup.

Don't we wish we were all so lucky?

Nono · May 20, 2006, 04:10 pm

Quote:

Quote by: bishop

i think their military has a track record of quashing islamist rebellions. their military is entirely dedicated to keeping turkey a secular state - even if it means imposing a temporary military coup.

This is the complicated thing about Turkey if you're a Western modernist. On the one hand, the military are indeed the traditional guarantors of secularism. On the other hand, they're a bunch of right fascists. True believers in the rule of law walk a tightrope between the two poles.

That's one reason why, unlike G.Adams and rmnunez, I'm damned skeptical about Turkish entry into the EU.

G. Adams · May 20, 2006, 04:43 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Matt W

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4998770.stm

I'm glad you posted this Matt. I'm tired of hearing the neo-con ass kissers claiming that Muslims never protest Islamic atrocities.

Nono - In the past my concerns were purely geo-political maneuvering for the EU. I don't want Turkey in the EU, for now, because I don't want to see any expansion until we have constitution that radically overhauls the EU. It's needs democratising and slimming down.

Nono · May 20, 2006, 04:45 pm

Quote:

Quote by: GA

The EU needs democratising and slimming down.

With you there.

bishop · May 20, 2006, 04:49 pm

i've known several turks in my master's program... they all believe in secularism and said that the majority of the country does as well.. the common theme amongst them was that these theocratic tendencies come from radical fringes of their society - a fringe that they view with fear given the islamists' tendency towards violence.. of course, when it comes to violence even the islamists can't hold a candle to the turkish military.

it seemed to me that the military often employed brutal force because they had the backing of the public, who seem to abhor the possibility of theocracy. i could imagine if a bunch of bible thumpers were trying to impose theocratic law/rule over me (and included acts of terrorism in their toolbox)... i probably wouldn't mind seeing our military quash that movement.

Nono · May 20, 2006, 05:28 pm

Except that not so long ago the military were in power in the midst of a sort of civil war, and the Islamists weren't even on the scene yet really.

The Turkish generals have a record of being hostile to Islamists, yes, but also to non-Turkish minorities, anyone to the left of Genghis Khan, etc. etc. I mean, Saddam Hussein was a fervent "secularist" too.

Naturally the type of Turk you're likely to run into in Cambridge, Mass will be a secularist. That doesn't necessarily mean much either way.

bishop · May 20, 2006, 07:37 pm

the ones who live towards istanbul tend to be secularists..

heh, the people at my school are very similar for the most part.. they're all capitalists, they're all pro-globalization, etc.. (it is a business school after all - i wouldn't go through all the pain if i didn't believe in it myself either.)

always interesting to actually get to talk to someone from another country though, and hear their perspectives and knowledge of their own country. the comments i heard about the military brutality seemed a bit... uncomfortable. i got the sense that they supported the military's behavior, but felt embarrassed to vocally support its brutality (i.e. they liked the radical islamists even less). the people i spoke with were my age (26), so their perspective can't stretch back all that long - maybe 10 years tops.

Nono · May 21, 2006, 03:22 pm

I went to university in Germany in the late 70s - early 80s. The military were in power in Turkey and there was a de facto civil war going on. Germany is full of Turks, as you probably know, and I heard one horror story after another from just average people. The place was one big torture chamber.

Of course the Islamists are no better, are they? It just sounds like a pretty fucked up country.

Let's put it this way: The Swiss national football team had the temerity to beat the Turks on their home turf last year. They barely made it off the field unlynched, and Swiss fans in the stadium had a narrow escape too.

Then there's the fact that 91 years on they still won't hear of the Armenian genocide. Give us an effng break.

Etc.

bishop · May 21, 2006, 03:38 pm

yeah... i don't think turkey was ever much of a peaceful nation to begin with.. their reputation is centuries old.

it does seem, though, that the prospect of becoming an EU member has caused their military to think twice before acting. good to see that happen at least. (if that incentive were removed, i wonder how they'd start to behave..)

May 20, 2006, 10:10 am	#2 (permalink) (top)
Boetie Hot Lava Posts: 1,227	If the Kurds break free and become independent, this will have a ricochet effect on Turkey and may even blow Turkey's chances of getting into the EU. The whole Kurd freedom could have such an impact on Turkey that it may result in a battle between the seculars and the fundies in the country of Turkey that could get messy. Iraq I'm sure is having such a battle and there is no doubt a political battle between the secular and fundies going on in Iran. This whole Iraq war is nothing but one big screw up. Last edited by Boetie; May 20, 2006 at 10:16 am.

May 20, 2006, 11:50 am	#3 (permalink) (top)
bishop moderat-e/o-r Location: boston Posts: 11,184	i'm a bit rusty on my turkish history, but i think their military has a track record of quashing islamist rebellions. their military is entirely dedicated to keeping turkey a secular state - even if it means imposing a temporary military coup. hope for america... http://www.ronpaul2008.com/

May 20, 2006, 04:49 pm	#8 (permalink) (top)
bishop moderat-e/o-r Location: boston Posts: 11,184	i've known several turks in my master's program... they all believe in secularism and said that the majority of the country does as well.. the common theme amongst them was that these theocratic tendencies come from radical fringes of their society - a fringe that they view with fear given the islamists' tendency towards violence.. of course, when it comes to violence even the islamists can't hold a candle to the turkish military. it seemed to me that the military often employed brutal force because they had the backing of the public, who seem to abhor the possibility of theocracy. i could imagine if a bunch of bible thumpers were trying to impose theocratic law/rule over me (and included acts of terrorism in their toolbox)... i probably wouldn't mind seeing our military quash that movement. hope for america... http://www.ronpaul2008.com/

May 20, 2006, 05:28 pm	#9 (permalink) (top)
Nono Throbbing Member Location: Old Europe Posts: 6,736	Except that not so long ago the military were in power in the midst of a sort of civil war, and the Islamists weren't even on the scene yet really. The Turkish generals have a record of being hostile to Islamists, yes, but also to non-Turkish minorities, anyone to the left of Genghis Khan, etc. etc. I mean, Saddam Hussein was a fervent "secularist" too. Naturally the type of Turk you're likely to run into in Cambridge, Mass will be a secularist. That doesn't necessarily mean much either way. "I wish I was as cocksure of anything as Tom Macaulay is of everything." -- Viscount Melbourne

May 20, 2006, 07:37 pm	#10 (permalink) (top)
bishop moderat-e/o-r Location: boston Posts: 11,184	the ones who live towards istanbul tend to be secularists.. heh, the people at my school are very similar for the most part.. they're all capitalists, they're all pro-globalization, etc.. (it is a business school after all - i wouldn't go through all the pain if i didn't believe in it myself either.) always interesting to actually get to talk to someone from another country though, and hear their perspectives and knowledge of their own country. the comments i heard about the military brutality seemed a bit... uncomfortable. i got the sense that they supported the military's behavior, but felt embarrassed to vocally support its brutality (i.e. they liked the radical islamists even less). the people i spoke with were my age (26), so their perspective can't stretch back all that long - maybe 10 years tops. hope for america... http://www.ronpaul2008.com/ Last edited by bishop; May 20, 2006 at 07:39 pm.

May 21, 2006, 03:22 pm	#11 (permalink) (top)
Nono Throbbing Member Location: Old Europe Posts: 6,736	I went to university in Germany in the late 70s - early 80s. The military were in power in Turkey and there was a de facto civil war going on. Germany is full of Turks, as you probably know, and I heard one horror story after another from just average people. The place was one big torture chamber. Of course the Islamists are no better, are they? It just sounds like a pretty fucked up country. Let's put it this way: The Swiss national football team had the temerity to beat the Turks on their home turf last year. They barely made it off the field unlynched, and Swiss fans in the stadium had a narrow escape too. Then there's the fact that 91 years on they still won't hear of the Armenian genocide. Give us an effng break. Etc. "I wish I was as cocksure of anything as Tom Macaulay is of everything." -- Viscount Melbourne

May 21, 2006, 03:38 pm	#12 (permalink) (top)
bishop moderat-e/o-r Location: boston Posts: 11,184	yeah... i don't think turkey was ever much of a peaceful nation to begin with.. their reputation is centuries old. it does seem, though, that the prospect of becoming an EU member has caused their military to think twice before acting. good to see that happen at least. (if that incentive were removed, i wonder how they'd start to behave..) hope for america... http://www.ronpaul2008.com/