Illegals granted Social Security

[Aquietguy1]

Quote by: Agent86 Are you familiar with capitalism????? You may want to read up on it. Google it and get back to me in a few years would ya??

Yes I am. Are you familiar with our laws? Were does it say that you can hire some one that's illegal? Since they can't get hired normal, they accept lower wages. Greedy companies are the main reason that we have this problem.

[Aquietguy1]

Quote by: Agent86 Are you familiar with capitalism????? You may want to read up on it. Google it and get back to me in a few years would ya??

Yes I am. Are you familiar with our laws? Were does it say that you can hire someone that's illegal? Since they can't get hired normal, they accept lower wages. Greedy companies are the main reason that we have this problem.

[tman_ndsu08]

Quote by: Aquietguy1 They will if if pays them enough to live on.

Nope.

Even if you do pay them $9/hr. or whatever crackpot rate you socialists think is "acceptable", they still won't do it.

Face it, America is lazy. We want all the easy stuff. No one wants to work for it.

Illegal immigrants make benefits and wages artificially low.

LOL!

Typical socialist economics (or lackthereof).


There is no such thing as artificially low if the person you're paying to the job freely accepts the wage you're paying him.


If someone wanted to sell you a new car for $1000, would you say "oh no sir! that's artificially low!".

[gr8fuldaniel]

Quote by: tman_ndsu08 Quote by: gr8fuldaniel There are no jobs Americans wont do, for a living wage. What is a "living wage"? Some socialist fantasy I assume.

Yes, I suppose if you owned a plantation in the 1700's, a living wage would seem un-American.

Quote by: tman Americans won't work the night shift mopping floors. They might do it a couple nights but then they quit.

Plenty of Americans do just that, and in the past, if you were in a union, you could even own a home and a car and a family doctor and a TV, and be a part of the middle class.

Quote by: tman They don't want those kinds of jobs.

Not if they have to work two other jobs as well.

Quote by: tman And the ones that do want a bunch of union BS benefits/artificially high wages.

Unions are the only democracy in the business kingdom. "BS benefits"?? WOW, you are freakin weird.

[Aquietguy1]

Quote by: tman_ndsu08 Nope. [Even if you do pay them $9/hr. or whatever crackpot rate you socialists think is "acceptable", they still won't do it. Face it, America is lazy. We want all the easy stuff. No one wants to work for it.

I'm not a socialist. I agree what you some what but trust me, if you can live off of $9/hr there will always be someone willing to do it.

LOL! Typical socialist economics (or lackthereof). There is no such thing as artificially low if the person you're paying to the job freely accepts the wage you're paying him. If someone wanted to sell you a new car for $1000, would you say "oh no sir! that's artificially low!".

It has nothing to do what socialism. It's about laws and Trying to make ends meet. Illegal emmergants can't get hire through normal means, so they except lower wages to entice companies to brake the law. Most people don't live 10 to 15 poeple in a single house hold so they can't except such low wages. If illegals were not here the wages would not be so low. So there is no such thing as artificially low wages.

[Aquietguy1]

Quote by: tman And the ones that do want a bunch of union BS benefits/artificially high wages.

If there is no such thing as artificially low if the person you're paying to the job freely accepts the wage you're paying him, how can their be artificially high wages if someone is willing to pay.

[bishop]

Quote by: agent86 Bishop it says you are from Boston. Well I am from California and have been my whole life. I see no ill effect from illegal immigrants. Have they affected you in some personal way?? I agree with what rick had to say about silly laws that make it a crime to want to come to America to make a better life for one self. Is'nt that how America was built after all?? Illegal immigrants will be the key to our future growth, because they have what any society needs to continue on a growth path, they are HUNGRY!!! And I don't mean that in a literal way.

i haven't been affected by illegal immigrants, but they have affected many other americans. they suppress wages below the already too-low minimum wage, they sap state funds, overcrowd our schools, increase crime rates, import drugs, import poverty, increase demand for identity theft and fraud, etc...

something about crime and law enforcement

i really don't see why it's such an unspeakable thing for us to secure our own border, which is entirely within our rights, while improving/reforming immigration laws at the same time.

[Aquietguy1]

Quote by: agent86 Illegal immigrants will be the key to our future growth, because they have what any society needs to continue on a growth path, they are HUNGRY!!! And I don't mean that in a literal way.

The thing that most of them are hungry for is free benefits that they can get here. What a society really needs to continue on a growth path is a manufacturing base, which we have shifted to China. That's why China economy is growing. They will surpass us in the near future at the rate that they are going. A society can't grow if it doesn't export more than it imports. If you buy more products from someone than they buy from you, you will lose money. That's what's happening to America. We import way more than we export and our manufacturing base is just about gone thanks to free trade, which is supposed to be so great for America. America has mostly service and retail industries. Illegal immigrants are a strain on our declining economy.

[rmnunez]

The "socialist economics" claim is a problem, but counterintuitive in this discussion. Do undocumenteds drive down wages through their collusive illicit employment? No doubt, absent undocumenteds willing to take the jobs at lower rates, those jobs would be taken by authentic taxpaying citizens who would demand what they are entitled to (higher wages, worker safety, union benefits...) so wages would be higher, but what would this entail?

We'd need to analyze the figures, but a simple analysis suggests the cost of products using undocumented labor would go up. A socialisitic perspective would figure that rise in cost would be borne by the employer and manifest itself in a diminution in profits. Common-sense and past experience suggests rather than losing profits, employers would pass the added cost on to the consumer. The higher costs depend on the proportion of the price that labor represents. If its a head of lettuce or something like construction, a reasonable estimate is that the labor costs would rise by about two thirds (undocumenteds earn about a third of what citizen counterparts are paid).

[Osborn F Enready]

Another day in socialist America, since it adopted it's "everyone is a winner" attitude, and its safety net built on ideals, not logical economics.

All the more reason to trim the system to Constitutional standards, you know, legal.

[troup1998]

email your Congressional Staffers

It really works! Let them know how you feel.

http://www.OutsourceCongress.org/out...hstaffers.html

We are really creating an issue up there. I bet within the past 2 weeks this program has generated over 100,000 emails directly to Congress staffers. I have blind copies of thousands!

In 3 easy clicks you'll be ready to type your email body; to staffers of a Rep or Senator.

Let them know we don't like their illegal alien invasion

They don't like what I've done. Well, it's mutual, I don't like what they are doing.

They can't really stop me or block me because I'm not sending the emails. I'm just providing mailto links for people to send the emails through their own ISPs. What are they going to do, block every ISP from sending mail to mail.house.gov and senate.gov?

Try it.

Mike
http://www.OutsourceCongress.org/

[Tony Clifton]

the North American Union is on its way...

If NAFTA didn't scare or enrage you & this amenesty & guest worker program doesn't scare or enrage you then maybe the North American Union won't either.

[rmnunez]

Proposal to implant chips on immigrants at the border:

Scott Silverman, Chairman of the Board of VeriChip Corporation, has proposed implanting the company's RFID tracking tags in immigrant and guest workers. He made the statement on national television earlier this week. Silverman was being interviewed on "Fox & Friends." Responding to the Bush administration's call to know "who is in our country and why they are here," he proposed using VeriChip RFID implants to register workers at the border, and then verify their identities in the workplace. He added, "We have talked to many people in Washington about using it...." http://www.livescience.com/scienceof...fid_chips.html

[bishop]

jesus... talk about mark of the beast... maybe they'll give this a test-run on ex-cons first, then move onto immigrants, and eventually, u.s. citizens.. can't wait till the day when we get to be forcefed our meds, equilibrium style..

instead, how about we just secure the border and revise immigration laws/procedures to permit legal immigrants to pass through in an efficient manner? and at the same time, we could also prosecute these miscreants filing fraudulent w-2's since we already know who they are!

of course, since this proposal represents another pet project that would do nothing towards reducing illegal immigration, i'm sure that the rejects in congress are giving it serious consideration.

[Scribbler1]

Quote by: rmnunez Proposal to implant chips on immigrants at the border:

Sure, the guy MAKES them and would love a nice fat government contract. I'm sure he will conveniently forget to mention that these things only work at close range and some guy dancing across the desert in the middle of the night won't even appear on the chipscope.

[rmnunez]

I had the impression these chips could easily track implants dancing in the desert, would even provide details (name, gender, height, weight, address...). The fact its the CEO of the chip company calling for their being implanted does detract from the persuasion of his call, obviously he wants to sell more of these things. I did note the fellow was meeting with legislators then debating immigration reform.

[tman_ndsu08]

Quote by: gr8fuldaniel Plenty of Americans do just that, and in the past, if you were in a union, you could even own a home and a car and a family doctor and a TV, and be a part of the middle class.

Yeah, 1st generation immigrant Americans do those jobs.

2nd generation and longer Americans won't do them.


Sure, if you artificially raise the wages high enough, you can afford those things doing any job.

That is until inflation sets in not long after and what used to be a high paying salery goes right back to what it natually is: a low paying, market based salery.

Not if they have to work two other jobs as well.

No one is making anyone work two jobs.

Unions are the only democracy in the business kingdom.

Business are not democracies. Business are dictatorships and rightfully so.

You either do what your boss tells you to or you get fired. And it's your choice to apply to work there in the first place.


So take some personally responsibility for once.

Quote by: Aquietguy1 trust me, if you can live off of $9/hr there will always be someone willing to do it.

And if you can live off of $4/hr, there will always be someone willing to do it.

The market sets that rate, whatever it is. Not socialist governments.

It's about laws and Trying to make ends meet.

That's socialism!

Socialism is anything that trys to artificially change what the market suggests.

Illegal emmergants can't get hire through normal means, so they except lower wages to entice companies to brake the law.

That's called trade.

A company wants a worker who will work for $3/hr. Fine. Whoever applies gets it.

And we don't want to know a damn thing about you. Just show up for work and get paid at the end of the day, ok?

Most people don't live 10 to 15 poeple in a single house hold so they can't except such low wages.

Most people spend well beyond their means to buy tons of shit that they don't need.

Go over to China and India.

See how some of those people over there survive just as well as you do by spending a small fraction of what you spend every day to buy tons of shit.

If illegals were not here the wages would not be so low.

You're right, but not for the reasons you think.

If illegals were not here then those jobs would not be in America. They'd be in China and India.

Which means that only higher paying, higher skill jobs would be left.

So yes, the net effect of that would be a higher average wage.

So there is no such thing as artificially low wages.

Absolutely right.

The market sets the wage rate.

Quote by: Aquietguy1 If there is no such thing as artificially low if the person you're paying to the job freely accepts the wage you're paying him, how can their be artificially high wages if someone is willing to pay.

Because no one is willing to pay more than market value.

They're being forced to by the government.

[rmnunez]

How 'artificial' is the wage rate paid undocumenteds?

That rate is lower for more than one reason, because undocumenteds accept it due to their illicit condition and because they haven't had to bear with the fiscal deductions. With more visas expeditiously issued for accesible fees, more immigrants would be documented and hence fiscalized, so that reason would disappear. Fiscalized undocumenteds would need to add at least the added amount they will be taxed to break even.

We'd also need to see beefed-up enforcement and harsher punishment of the undocumenteds' citizen employers and of undocumenteds for working, before we'd see this problem disappear. How many united statians have been successfully prosecuted and suitably sentenced so far?

[tivodan1116]

There is an easy solution to this problem: Don't give anyone Social Security benefits. You solve the problem of the dwindling returns in the system and the "illegals" getting benefits in one shot.

By the way, does anyone besides me think that it's hysterical that a large number of people who say they're in favor of a free market (conservatives) are not in favor of a free market in labor?
Having immigration laws is no different than having protectionist tariffs.

[Mia]

I think a decision has to be made about what exactly our immigration policy is going to be, enforce it, and decide what to do with illegals over here, and enforce that, before making these other kinds of decisions.

Granting illegals back social security is a decision in a direction that hasn't been determined yet. Cart before the horse.