Thousands of troops will head to border

[Sean]

http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/05/...ion/index.html

President Bush will order fewer than 10,000 National Guard troops to the U.S.-Mexico border to support Border Patrol agents in stopping illegal immigration, a senior administration official said Monday. Bush will outline his plan in a televised speech to the nation at 8 p.m. ET Monday, the official said. The troops -- about 3 percent of all National Guard units -- will not be involved in apprehending illegal immigrants, the official said. (Watch what Bush hopes to accomplish with his address -- 2:36) The president's speech comes as conservative Republicans -- many of whom are running in midterm elections -- support new legislation aimed at increasing punishment for people who enter the United States illegally. The issue also has prompted nationwide protests by hundreds of thousands of immigration supporters over the past weeks. White House counselor Dan Bartlett said Monday that the move does not represent "a militarization of the borders," The Associated Press reported.

[bishop]

finally, the national guard is being used to defend the country from foreign invasion.. we have every right to secure our borders - in fact, we're one of the only countries in the world that chooses to leave it unguarded.

this bit caught me off guard though...

Appearing on CBS' "The Early Show," Bartlett said Guard forces sent to the area "will not have law enforcement responsibilities or powers. They will be there in a supportive role. ... It's about a constitutional responsibility to enforce our borders," the AP reported.

so, if they don't have law enforcement responsibilities or powers, what are they going to do exactly? make phone calls to the border authority to have them arrest the illegals?

[RickSp]

Quote by: bishop finally, the national guard is being used to defend the country from foreign invasion.. we have every right to secure our borders - in fact, we're one of the only countries in the world that chooses to leave it unguarded.

I doubt that we will be seeing too many well funded terrorists trekking across the desert when there are so many better and easier ways to cross the border. This is just more fear mongering by the Bush adminstration, trying to satisfy the xenophobic right who wants to stop folks willing to work hard in order to make better lives for themselves and their families - those evil brown bastards, from crossing the border. It won't make us one iota safer. It will just stretch our over-stretched National Guard a little thinner just in time for hurricane season.

And Bishop, most countries except police states or those bordering police states have relatively unguarded borders. We are just one step closer now to becoming a police state ourselves. Troops on the border, wiretapping and monitoring of domestic phone calls, emails and browsing, the FBI spying on peace groups and NSA spying on everyone else.

Welcome to George Bush's America where the slogan "the only thing we have to fear, is fear itself" have been replaced by "Be Afraid, Be Very Afraid."

[Apeman81]

Quote by: RickSp I doubt that we will be seeing too many well funded terrorists trekking across the desert when there are so many better and easier ways to cross the border. This is just more fear mongering by the Bush adminstration, trying to satisfy the xenophobic right who wants to stop folks willing to work hard in order to make better lives for themselves and their families - those evil brown bastards, from crossing the border. It won't make us one iota safer. It will just stretch our over-stretched National Guard a little thinner just in time for hurricane season. And Bishop, most countries except police states or those bordering police states have relatively unguarded borders. We are just one step closer now to becoming a police state ourselves. Troops on the border, wiretapping and monitoring of domestic phone calls, emails and browsing, the FBI spying on peace groups and NSA spying on everyone else. Welcome to George Bush's America where the slogan "the only thing we have to fear, is fear itself" have been replaced by "Be Afraid, Be Very Afraid."

It only takes one.

Their is absolutely no reason not to secure our borders from those who enter this counry illegally. None.

Name me another country that has the numbers flooding into it as we do here in the U.S.

You can't.

[bishop]

Quote by: rick I doubt that we will be seeing too many well funded terrorists trekking across the desert when there are so many better and easier ways to cross the border. This is just more fear mongering by the Bush adminstration, trying to satisfy the xenophobic right who wants to stop folks willing to work hard in order to make better lives for themselves and their families - those evil brown bastards, from crossing the border. It won't make us one iota safer. It will just stretch our over-stretched National Guard a little thinner just in time for hurricane season. And Bishop, most countries except police states or those bordering police states have relatively unguarded borders. We are just one step closer now to becoming a police state ourselves. Troops on the border, wiretapping and monitoring of domestic phone calls, emails and browsing, the FBI spying on peace groups and NSA spying on everyone else. Welcome to George Bush's America where the slogan "the only thing we have to fear, is fear itself" have been replaced by "Be Afraid, Be Very Afraid."

actually, while i believe that terrorists could pass through our southern border, my main issue is stopping (or at least putting the brakes on) the nearly constant flow of illegal immigrants into our country. it is an invasion of the economic sort - and while i understand why the mexicans want to come here, they should be forced to do it legally. and yes, this would mean that we'd have to overhaul our immigration laws to actually let them in.. i do not accept the notion that we should simply let people illegally enter our country. if we as individuals are expected to obey our laws, so too is the government.

and i wouldn't call mexico a police state, but it's a ridiculously corrupt and violent state. their military is in bed with the drug cartels after all, and there have been reports of the mexican military encroaching on our territory. and the mexican government's corruption is the reason why there are so many uneducated, unskilled and dirt poor mexicans who are stowing away to enter our country by whatever means necessary.. mexico's effectively exporting their problems to us, and it seems like that's fine and dandy to you.


as far as the national guard goes... they're overstretched because they've been sent to iraq, where they don't belong. the bit about wiretapping is a separate issue to me - particularly because it applies to u.s. citizens, not illegal immigrants.

[jose]

Quote by: Apeman81 Name me another country that has the numbers flooding into it as we do here in the U.S. You can't.

i can
LOS CRISTIANOS, Canary Islands – Boatloads of destitute Africans on rickety fishing boats are turning up on the beaches of these Spanish resort islands nearly every day, gaunt and exhausted from days at sea.
They are the lucky ones.
Hundreds of others have died attempting the ocean journey,

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/w...onworries.html

[Apeman81]

Quote by: jose i can LOS CRISTIANOS, Canary Islands – Boatloads of destitute Africans on rickety fishing boats are turning up on the beaches of these Spanish resort islands nearly every day, gaunt and exhausted from days at sea. They are the lucky ones. Hundreds of others have died attempting the ocean journey, http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/w...onworries.html

And what is the end result of thier entry into that nation?

[jose]

Well if they make land they get into Europe

[RickSp]

Quote by: bishop it is an invasion of the economic sort - and while i understand why the mexicans want to come here, they should be forced to do it legally. and yes, this would mean that we'd have to overhaul our immigration laws to actually let them in...

Exactly. We need to revise our immigration laws so that those now prevented from having any hope of legal immigration have a chance to apply legally. As it is now, even though there is an economic need for Mexican immigrant labor, it is for all intents and purposes impossible to meet that need legally.

Of course sending ten thousand National Guard troops to the border does nothing but strain our over burdened Guard and to play to people's bigotry and fears.

[gr8fuldaniel]

Quote by: Ape Their is absolutely no reason not to secure our borders from those who enter this counry illegally. None.

Leave it to the cons to come up with a military solution for a domestic problem.

Enforce the laws we already have against HIRING illegal immigrants and they all leave tomorrow.

That would put a strain on bush cronies who planted him in office, his base.

The corporations love the power they hold over illegals, what are they going to do about low wages and unsafe practices and other mistreatment, complain? Are they going to press charges?

But its not as macho to threaten corporations with prison for breaking laws.


But he has whooped up the racists like Mike "The Weanie" Savage, into a frenzy because over 1/2 of all children under 5 years old are now minorities.

If we stop hiring them, they will go away. Or get legal.

[RickSp]

Quote by: Apeman81 Their is absolutely no reason not to secure our borders from those who enter this counry illegally. None.

The United States is a land of immigrants and those whose families have been here a few generations always want to slam the door behind them. Nothing new about xenophobia.

So, what tribe are you from Tonto?

[brien]

[quote=RickSp........ This is just more fear mongering by the Bush adminstration, trying to satisfy the xenophobic right who wants to stop folks willing to work hard in order to make better lives for themselves and their families - those evil brown bastards....

Welcome to George Bush's America where the slogan "the only thing we have to fear, is fear itself" have been replaced by "Be Afraid, Be Very Afraid."[/QUOTE]

Rick: I think you are baiting bigots in your statement above. Rational people do not want to deny immigrants legal entry into this country. It is the illegal entry that concerns rational people who wish to merely channel legal immigration through legal ports of entry. This is the law and this nation is supposed to be a nation of laws. Granted, legal immigration is a slow process but this is something Congress can do to fix the problem, not the Administration.

As far as GWB, I haven't seen him out front of this issue at all until recently. He could have done a lot more to stem the tide of illegals before now. But he refused until the problem became unavoidable. I have heard more poeple blame him for NOT doing anything to work this problem than blaming him FOR doing somethng to solve the problem. He seems to have made it clear he would grant amnesty to those workers already here.

I am NOT a GWB supporter but you seem to attack him for doing something about the problem while still others attack him for NOT doing anything about the problem. It is my contention he hasn't done much to solve the problem one way or the other. His inaction during his term(s) has defined his policy on illegal immigration. Typical GWB. "What me, worry"?

[brien]

Quote by: RickSp The United States is a land of immigrants and those whose families have been here a few generations always want to slam the door behind them. Nothing new about xenophobia. So, what tribe are you from Tonto?

Historically, this is a land of LEGAL immigrants. I think you are overstating the xenophobia issue.

[brien]

Quote by: RickSp Exactly. We need to revise our immigration laws so that those now prevented from having any hope of legal immigration have a chance to apply legally. As it is now, even though there is an economic need for Mexican immigrant labor, it is for all intents and purposes impossible to meet that need legally. Of course sending ten thousand National Guard troops to the border does nothing but strain our over burdened Guard and to play to people's bigotry and fears.

And the revision of outdated immigration laws falls squarely upon the shoulders of Congress, not the Executive. Meanwhile, let the economy sort out the supply and demand of the labor pool after the current amnesty program is implemented, the immigration laws are reformed, and illegal border entries are shut down.

[brien]

Quote by: Sean http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/05/...ion/index.html

The main problem I see with stationing troops along the border is the issue of confrontation. Mexican troops are there as well. There are currently over 111,000 IRR (Individual Ready Reserve) so I don't see the 5600 beiing called up in July, along with another 10,000 or less for border patrol, straining the IRR numbers as some would imply. The border needs to be secured from illegal entry.

see:http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Jun2...200406306.html

[brien]

Quote by: RickSp Exactly. We need to revise our immigration laws so that those now prevented from having any hope of legal immigration have a chance to apply legally. As it is now, even though there is an economic need for Mexican immigrant labor, it is for all intents and purposes impossible to meet that need legally. Of course sending ten thousand National Guard troops to the border does nothing but strain our over burdened Guard and to play to people's bigotry and fears.

Some DOD statistics on the IRR. There is a call up coming in July of 5600 so a call up of under 10,000 for border patrol doesn't seem to strain the IRR as much as you would seem to imply.


See:http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Jun2...200406306.html

[jose]

What if Mexico decides to send troops to the border?

[brien]

Quote by: jose What if Mexico decides to send troops to the border?

I believe they are already there.

See:http://www.newsmax.com/archives/arti...3/133254.shtml

See:http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=48357

[bishop]

mexico's army has already invaded our territory..

i completely agree with brien here.. the issue has NOTHING to do with xenophobia, racism or any other flame-baiting slander (at least from my perspective). it's a hollow argument, particularly when debating people who are not xenophobes and aren't racist - and oppose illegal immigration on very reasonable grounds. sure, there are bigots out there who oppose immigration of all varieties - people who've piggybacked this issue as their own, but they don't represent my views one iota. i personally like the fact that people still want to come to our country, and would like to see laws change to make it easier for them to become citizens if they chose to do so.. it's heartening to see that despite this countries multitude of problems, people still want to come here because they see it as being a "better" place.

when people toss out the slogan of "this country is a country of immigrants", we should instead say, "this country is a country of LEGAL immigrants"..


and, like i said, the national guard wouldn't be overextended if they werent' in iraq. they didn't belong there in the first place. send them home, send the rest home and let iraq sort its own problems out.


and, until you secure the border, you can do whatever you like as far as reforming immigration laws are concerned and illegals will continue to flood into our country. another argument that's either hollow or fails to stand up to reason. it simply doesn't make any sense to suggest that reforming immigration laws without complementary border security will stop illegal immigration. (especially when miscreant employers hire them under the counter.)

[Lepid]

What is the punishment for entering another country illegally?

I would say about 500,000 men (and women) would be guilty of doing just that in Iraq in 2003! (re. International Law!