http://www.volconvo.com/forums/blog14667.html A debate, talk, and discussion forum for politics, religion, economics, science, arts and other topics. en Tue, 21 May 2013 11:23:12 GMT vBulletin 60 http://www.volconvo.com/forums/images/misc/rss.jpg http://www.volconvo.com/forums/blog14667.html http://www.volconvo.com/forums/entry910.html Wed, 23 May 2012 21:45:07 GMT I think Bob's music is a sort of acquired taste, many people don't get him. Others like certain periods of his music and not others. Like the folk stuff, the electric stuff, up to the Blood On The Tracks stuff. I think he just keeps getting better.

]]> The Theist http://www.volconvo.com/forums/entry910.html http://www.volconvo.com/forums/entry909.html Wed, 23 May 2012 20:13:10 GMT The Importance Of The Death Of Herod To Dating Christ

Herod lived hard and fast, so not surprising Josephus said of his painful death: "an intolerable itching of the whole skin, continuous pains in the intestines, tumours in the feet as in dropsy, inflammation of the abdomen and gangrene of the privy parts, engendering worms, in addition to asthma, with great difficulty in breathing, and convulsions in all his limbs." - The Jewish War, I, 656 (xxxiii, 5).

The problem with the dating of his death when considering Bible chronology is that some put his death in the year 5 or 4 B.C.E. based primarily upon Josephus' history. In dating Herod's being appointed as king by Rome Josephus uses a consular dating, which is a location of events occurring during the rule of certain Roman consuls. According to this method Herod was appointed as king in 40 B.C.E., but another historian Appianos placed the event at 39 B.C.E.

Josephus places Herod's capture of Jerusalem at 37 B.C.E. but he also says that this occurred 27 years after the capture of the city by Pompey which was in 63 B.C.E. (Jewish Antiquities, XIV, 487, 488 [xvi, 4]) So in that case the date of Herod taking the city of Jerusalem would be 36 B.C.E. so 37 years from the time that he was appointed king by the Romans and 34 years after he took Jerusalem (Jewish Antiquities, XVII, 190, 191 [viii, 1]) would indicate the date of his death as 2 or 1 B.C.E.

It might be that Josephus counted the reigns of the kings of Judea by the accession year method which was the case with the kings of the line of David.

If Herod's was appointed king in 40 B.C.E. his first regnal year would probably begin at Nisan 39 to Nisan 38 B.C.E. and if counted from the capture of Jerusalem in 37 or 36 B.C.E. his first regnal year would have started in Nisan 36 or 35 B.C.E. so if Herod died 37 years after his appointment by Rome and 34 years after his capture of Jerusalem and those years are counted both according to his regnal year his death would have been 1 B.C.E.

In The Journal of Theological Studies (Edited by H. Chadwick and H. Sparks, Oxford, 1966, Vol. XVII, p. 284), W. E. Filmer indicates that Jewish tradition says that Herod's death occurred on Shebat (January - February) 2

Josephus stated that Herod died not long after an eclipse of the moon and before a Passover (Jewish Antiquities, XVII, 167 [vi, 4]; 213 [ix, 3]). There was a partial eclipse on March 11, 4 B.C.E. (March 13, Julian) and so some conclude that this was the eclipse mentioned by Josephus, but there was a total eclipse of the moon in 1 B.C.E. about three months before Passover on January 8 (January 10, Julian) 18 days before Shebat 2 the traditional day of Herod's death.

There was also another partial eclipse on December 27 (December 29, Julian).

Most scholars date Herod's death as 4 B.C.E. citing the March 11 eclipse as proof and so place the birth of Jesus as early as 5 B.C.E., but that eclipse was only 36 percent magnitude and early in the morning. The other two taking place in 1 B.C.E. would both fit the requirement of having taken place not long before the Passover. The one of December 27 would have been observable in Jerusalem but not as a conspicuous event. Oppolzer's Canon of Eclipses (p. 343), says the moon was passing out of the earth's shadow as twilight fell in Jerusalem so by the time it was dark the moon was shining full. That particular one isn't included in the Manfred Kudlek and Erich Mickler listing. I personally think you can rule that one out because it is uncertain that it was visible in Jerusalem.

The January 8, 1 B.C.E. was a total eclipse where the moon was blacked out for 1 hour and 41 minutes and would have been noticed. (Solar and Lunar Eclipses of the Ancient Near East From 3000 B.C. to 0 With Maps, by M. Kudlek and E. H. Mickler; Neukirchen-Vluyn, Germany; 1971, Vol. I, p. 156.)

Also the calculation of Herod's age at the time of death is thought to be about 70, according to Josephus and he received his appointment as governor of Galilee (generally dated 47 B.C.E.) when he was 15, though scholars think that to be an error that should read 25. (Jewish Antiquities, XVII, 148 [vi, 1]; XIV, 158 [ix, 2]) Though Josephus has many inconsistencies in his dating of events and not the most reliable source. The most reliable source is the Bible itself.

The evidence is pretty clear that Herod likely died in the year 1 B.C.E. as Luke says that John began baptizing in the 15th year of Tiberius Caesar. (Luke 3:1-3) Augustus died on August 17, 14 C.E.. On September 15, Tiberius was named emperor by the Roman Senate. They (the Romans) didn't use the accession year method so the 15th year would have run from the latter part of 28 C.E. to the latter part of 29 C.E.

John was six months older than Jesus and began his ministry in the spring of that year (Luke 1:35-36) Jesus was born in the fall of the year and was about 30 years old when he came to John to be baptized (Luke 3:21-23) putting his baptism in the fall - about October of 29 C.E. Counting back about 30 years would put us at the fall of 2 B.C.E., the birth of Jesus. Daniel's prophecy of "70 weeks" points to the same time (Daniel 9:24-27) From the year 455 B.C.E. when King Artaxerxes of Persia, in the 20th year of his rule, in the month of Nisan, gave the order to rebuild the wall of the city of Jerusalem (Nehemiah 2:1-8) to 29 C.E. when Jesus was baptized was 69 weeks or 483 years.

The Census Of Quirinius

Skeptics of the Bible often question the dating of accurate Bible chronology regarding Jesus' birth based upon the incorrect notion that there was only one census taken while Publius Sulpicius was governor of Syria, at about 6 C.E.. The one that sparked a rebellion by Judas the Galilean and the Zealots. (Acts 5:37) That was the second, actually. Inscriptions found at and near Antioch reveals that some years earlier Quirinius served as the emperor's legate in Syria. As the Dictionnaire du Nouveau Testament in Crampon's French Bible (1939 ed., p. 360) says: "The scholarly researches of Zumpt (Commentat. epigraph., II, 86-104; De Syria romana provincia, 97-98) and of Mommsen (Res gestae divi Augusti) place beyond doubt that Quirinius was twice governor of Syria."

In 1764 an inscription called the Lapis Tiburtinus was found which concurs.

All of this demonstrates without a doubt, the reliability of the Bible's historical value and the importance of Bible chronology. With the Bible one can accurately deduce a historical timeline from Adam's creation to the present day. The following link provides such a timeline from Adam to the death of the apostle John. Biblical Timeline ]]> The Theist http://www.volconvo.com/forums/entry909.html http://www.volconvo.com/forums/entry908.html Wed, 23 May 2012 20:12:26 GMT *Babylon* The history of Babylon enters the Biblical chronology from Nebuchadnezzar II. His father, Nabapolassar marked the beginning of the Neo-Babylonian Empire which ended with... Babylon

The history of Babylon enters the Biblical chronology from Nebuchadnezzar II. His father, Nabapolassar marked the beginning of the Neo-Babylonian Empire which ended with Nabonidus and his son Belshazzar when Cyrus overthrew Babylon. Thus enters the destruction of Jerusalem and the 70 year exile.

Jeremiah 52:28 says that it was in the seventh year of Nebuchadnezzar (Nebuchanrezzar) when the first Jewish exiles were taken to Babylon. A cuneiform inscription of the Babylonian Chronicle (British Museum 21946) says: "The seventh year: In the month Kislev the king of Akkad mustered his army and marched to Hattu. He encamped against the city of Judah and on the second day of the month Adar he captured the city (and) seized (its) king [Jehoiachin]. A king of his own choice [Zedekiah] he appointed in the city (and) taking the vast tribute he brought it into Babylon." (Assyrian and Babylonian Chronicles, by A. K. Grayson, 1975, p. 102; compare 2 Kings 24:1-17 / 2 Chronicles 36:5-10.) For the final 32 years of Nebuchanezzar's reign there is no historical records of the chronicle except a fragmentary inscription of a campaign against Egypt in his 37th year.

Tablets dated up to the second year of the rule of Awil-Marduk (Evil-merodach 2 Kings 25:27-28) have been found. Neriglissar is thought to have been his successor and there are tablets dated to his fourth year.

Astronomical information for the seventh year of Cambyses II son of Cyrus II say: "Year 7, Tammuz, night of the 14th, 1 2⁄3 double hours [three hours and twenty minutes] after night came, a lunar eclipse; visible in its full course; it reached over the northern half disc [of the moon]. Tebet, night of the 14th, two and a half double hours [five hours] at night before morning [in the latter part of the night], the disc of the moon was eclipsed; the whole course visible; over the southern and northern part the eclipse reached." (Inschriften von Cambyses, König von Babylon, by J. N. Strassmaier, Leipzig, 1890, No. 400, lines 45-48; Sternkunde und Sterndienst in Babel, by F. X. Kugler, Münster, 1907, Vol. I, pp. 70, 71)

Those two lunar eclipses can be identified as those that were visible at Babylon on July 16, 523 B.C.E. and January 10, 522 B.C.E. (Oppolzer's Canon of Eclipses, translated by O. Gingerich, 1962, p. 335) This with the tablet puts the seventh year of Cambyses II as starting with the spring of 523 B.C.E. Which means his first year of rule was 529 B.C.E. his accession year, also the last year of Cyrus II of Babylon would have been 530 B.C.E. The last tablet of the reign of Cyrus II is dated from the fifth month, 23rd day of his ninth year. (Babylonian Chronology, 626 B.C.-A.D. 75, by R. Parker and W. Dubberstein, 1971, p. 14) Since the ninth year of Cyrus II was 530 his first year would have been 538 B.C.E. and accession year 539.

According to the Book of Daniel the last ruler in Babylon before it fell to the Persians was Belshazzar. (Daniel 5:1-30). Since there was no mention of Belshazzar outside the Bible his very existence was in doubt, but in the 19th century there was found several small cylinders inscribed in cuneiform in southern Iraq. A prayer to the health of Nabonidus, king of Babylon's eldest son - Belshazzar.

Nabonidus was the first king, his son Belshazzar was second and at Daniel 5:16 Belshazzar himself offered to make Daniel the third.

Wait for archeology. It usually catches up with the Bible. ]]> The Theist http://www.volconvo.com/forums/entry908.html http://www.volconvo.com/forums/entry907.html Wed, 23 May 2012 20:10:52 GMT *Egypt* Egyptian chronology is uniquely important because it is used in so much of ancient historical observation but also because at times Egyptian history meets with that of Israel. 1728... Egypt

Egyptian chronology is uniquely important because it is used in so much of ancient historical observation but also because at times Egyptian history meets with that of Israel. 1728 B.C.E. Israel entered into Egypt and 215 years later the Exodus. 1513. Pharaoh Shishak's attack on Jerusalem took place during Rhoboam's fifth year in 993 B.C.E. King So of Egypt reigned about the same time as Hoshea, c. 758 - 740 B.C.E. and Pharaoh Necho's battle that resulted in Josiah's death was likely in 629 B.C.E. (1 Kings 14:25 / 2 Kings 17:4 / 2 Chronicles 35:20-24) Modern historians would differ from this as much as a century but narrow down to about 20 years by Necho's time.

The reason is that modern historians rely upon documents such as the Egyptian king lists and annals. The fragmentary Palermo Stone with the first five "dynasties," the Turin Papyrus which only gives fragmentary lists of kings and their reigns from the "Old Kingdom" into the "New Kingdom," and other fragmentary inscriptions. These and other independent inscriptions were coordinated in chronological order by Manetho, an Egyptian priest of the third century B.C.E. He divides the Egyptian monarchs into 30 dynasties which modern Egyptologists still use today. With astronomical calculations based upon Egyptian texts of lunar phases and the rising of the Sothis (Dog Star) a chronological table can be produced.

Manetho's work, of course, is preserved only through the writings of later historians such as Josephus, Sextus Julius Africanus, Eusebius and Syncellus. Third, fourth and late eighth to early ninth centuries C.E. They are fragmentary and often distorted. His work is distorted not only through scribal errors and revisers but untenable from the start. Legend and myth.

Part of the problem was that he listed princely lines from which later rulers over all Egypt sprang. Several Egyptian kings ruled at one time and the same time, so it was not necessarily a succession of kings on the throne one after the other but several reigning at the same time in different regions. The result is a great total number of years.

So when the Bible indicates 2370 B.C.E. as the date of the deluge, Egyptian history must have begun after that date even though Egyptian chronology goes all the way back to the year 3000 B.C.E. it actually doesn't.

Egyptologist Dr. Hans Goedicke of Johns Hopkins University has a nonsensical theory that the Biblical record of the events at the Red Sea and the Exodus coincided with a 1477 B.C.E. volcanic eruption at Thera resulting in a tsunami or tidal wave that drowned the Egyptian forces, but his theory doesn't pay much attention to the Biblical account which mentions no wave.

The Hyksos period of Egyptian history warrants the same degree of caution and suspicion. Some believe that the Hyksos were a foreign people that gained control of Egypt and place Joseph's and then his family's entry into Egypt as being during that period of the Hyksos rulers, but only on the premise that it would have been more likely for a foreign ruler to have given a non Egyptian the position of second ruler.

But that theory disagrees with the Bible. Potiphar the court official was an Egyptian (Genesis 39:1) and Joseph was surrounded by native Egyptians. (Genesis 43:32)

Josephus, the source of the name Hyksos, accepted some connection between them and the Israelites but argued against many of the details found in Manetho's account. He (Josephus) preferred the term Hyksos as Captive Shepherds rather than Shepherd Kings.

Manetho presented the Hyksos as gaining control of Egypt without a battle and then destroying their cities and temples. Many years later the Egyptians supposedly rose up and fought a long and terrible war against them. Finally an Egyptian force of 480,000 men besieged them at their chief city, Avaris, and then, oddly enough, an agreement was reached that allowed the Hyksos to leave the country unharmed and they went to Judea and built Jerusalem. (Against Apion, Book I, par. 14)

Manetho adds to the account in what Josephus labels a fictitious addition of a large group of 80,000 leprous and diseased persons being allowed to settle in Avaris after the shepherds had left. Those persons later revolted and called back the "shepherds" (Hyksos?) who destroyed the cities and villages etc. (Against Apion, Book I, pars. 26, 28)

Though modern historians agree with the idea of a Hyksos conquest, they believe Josephus quotations as inaccurate in associating the Hyksos with the Israelites. They can't find much information from ancient Egyptian sources to fill in the records of the "Thirteenth to the Seventeenth Dynasties." Since they can't find it, they assume that some disintegration of power occurred in the "Thirteenth and Fourteenth Dynasties" based upon not much information, Egyptian folklore, and conjecture they conclude that it was the "Fifteenth and Sixteenth Dynasties" that Egypt was under the domination of the Hyksos.

Some archaeologists depict the Hyksos as "northern hordes . . . Sweeping through Palestine and Egypt with swift chariots." Others present them moving as a 'creeping conquest,' a gradual infiltration of migrating nomads or semi nomads who slowly took control or as a swift coup d'etat . In The World of the Past, 1963, p. 444 archaeologist Jaquetta Hawkes says: "It is no longer thought that the Hyksos rulers . . . represent the invasion of a conquering horde of Asiatics. The name seems to mean Rulers of the Uplands, and they were wandering groups of Semites who had long come to Egypt for trade and other peaceful purposes."

If that were true how would these wandering groups have gained control of Egypt in the "Twelfth Dynasty" which was about the time of Egypt's peek of power. It indicates to me a considerable amount of confusion on the parts of not only ancient Egyptian history but modern interpreters as well. No validity of the Hyksos Period can be achieved.
Another point of consideration is the fact that Egypt, like many Near Eastern lands, was heavily linked with the priesthood and the scribes were well trained under their tutelage leaving the very possible fact that propagandistic explanations were invented to account for the Egyptian gods to deal with Jehovah and the exodus.

If the Exodus account can be questioned it is only because the Pharaohs of Egypt didn't make any record of it. That is not unusual. They tended to record only their victories and not their defeats and they tried to erase anything historical that was contrary to their nationalistic image or ideology. Thutmose III, for example, chiseled away inscriptions made of Queen Hatshepsut on a stone monumental record found at Deir al-Bahri in Egypt.

Manetho the Egyptian priest and historian hated the Jews and Josephus quotes Manetho as saying that the ancestors of the Jews "entered Egypt in their myriads and subdued the inhabitants," Josephus said that Manetho "goes on to admit that they were afterwards driven out of the country, occupied what is now Judaea, founded Jerusalem, and built the temple." - Against Apion, I, 228 (26).

Though Manetho's account is regarded as unhistorical the fact remains that he mentions them as being in Egypt, going out and in other writings identifies Moses with Osarsiph, an Egyptian priest. Josephus also mentions two other Egyptian historians; Chaeremon, and Lysimachus who said that Joseph and Moses were driven out of Egypt at the same time. - Against Apion, I, 228, 238 (26); 288, 290 (32); 299 (33); 304-311 (34).

Jeroboam fled to Egypt to escape Solomon when Shishak ruled (1 Kings 11:40). Later, in the fifth year of Solomon's successor Rehoboam's (933 B.C.E.) Shishak invaded Judah but didn't bring Jerusalem to ruin. (2 Chronicles 12:1-12)

Archaeological evidence of Shishak's invading the area of Palestine was found on a fragment of stele at Megiddo and mentions Sheshonk as a victory of his. (Ancient Near Eastern Texts, edited by J. Pritchard, 1974, pp. 263, 264) A relief on a temple wall at Karnak, the north part of the ancient Egyptian city of Thebes, lists numerous cities and villages that Shishak conquered. (Supplements to Vetus Testamentum, Leiden, 1957, Vol. IV, pp. 59-60) It is likely that his campaign was not so much to assist the ten tribe kingdom but to gain control of the trade routes located in the territory of that kingdom, thus extending Egypt's power and influence.

Necho[h] was a pharaoh of Egypt, who, according to Herodotus (II, 158, 159; IV, 42) was the son of Psammetichus (Psammetichos, Psamtik I) and succeeded his father as ruler of Egypt. He began construction on a canal linking the Nile with the Red Sea but didn't complete the project, though he did send a Phoenician fleet on a voyage around Africa in three years.

At the close of Josiah's 31 year reign (659 - 629 B.C.E.) he was on his way to help the Assyrians at the river Euphrates. Josiah disregarded "the words of Necho from the mouth of God" and was killed while attempting to turn the Egyptians back at Megiddo. Three months later Necho took Jehoahaz, Josiah's successor, captive and made 25 year old Eliakim his vassal, changing his name to Jehoiakim. He (Necho) also put a heavy fine on Judah. (2 Chronicles 35:20 - 36:4 / 2 Kings 23:29 - 35) About 3 or 4 years later Necho's forces were defeated at Charchemish at the hands of the Babylonians under Nebuchadnezzar. (Jeremiah 46:2) ]]> The Theist http://www.volconvo.com/forums/entry907.html http://www.volconvo.com/forums/entry906.html Wed, 23 May 2012 20:09:08 GMT The Bible And Secular Dating Part I

Many people don't realize the far superior reliability of the Bible over secular history when it comes to dating, chronology and history itself. The first step is to make sure you are aware of cardinal and ordinal numbers and how they differ. Cardinal numbers (1, 2, 3, 10, 100, etc) have full value but with ordinal numbers (3rd, 5th, 22nd, etc.) you have to subtract 1. So - for example the "18th year of Nebuchadrezzar" at Jeremiah 52:29 would actually be 17 full years and however many months, weeks or days elapsed from the end of the 17th year.

Also, when considering a number of years from B.C.E. to C.E. you have to keep in mind that from a date such as October 1, 1 B.C.E. to October 1, 1 C.E. is only 1 year, rather than 2. They are ordinal numbers. So, from October 1, 2 B.C.E. (about the time of Jesus' birth) to October 1 of 29 C.E. (about the time of his baptism) there is a total of 30 years. 1 full year plus 3 months in B.C.E. and 28 full years plus 9 months in the C.E.

Next we need to set the pivotal date that both Biblical and secular history can pretty much agree upon. 29 C.E.; the early months of 29 C.E. were in the 15th year of Tiberius Caesar, named emperor by Roman Senate on September 15, 14 C.E. (Gregorian calendar) and the year that John the Baptizer started his preaching - six months later he baptized Jesus. Luke 3:1-3, 21, 23 / 1:36.

Or we could use 539 B.C.E. when Cyrus the Persian overthrew Babylon (See Diodorus, Africanus, Eusebius, Ptolemy and the Babylonian tablets.

Cyrus gave the decree releasing the Jews from exile most likely in the winter of 538 B.C.E. or spring of 537 B.C.E. That would have given them enough time to make preparations and make the four month journey to Jerusalem, arriving by the seventh month (Tishri - October 1) of 537 B.C.E. Ezra 1:1-11 / 2:64-70 / 3:1. ]]> The Theist http://www.volconvo.com/forums/entry906.html http://www.volconvo.com/forums/entry905.html Wed, 23 May 2012 20:02:04 GMT Prenatal Influence

The Bible, unlike what the typical uninformed baseless speculation of the atheist Bible critic suggests, doesn't promote the idea of prenatal influence or as it is sometimes called, maternal impressions.

Lets look at Genesis 30:37-43.

Jacob wanted to leave his father in law Laban's service but Laban wanted him to stay and accept wages. Jacob introduces the notion of him to continue feeding and tending the stock if Laban will only set apart the speckled and spotted animals and pay him any black or spotted and speckled sheep thereafter born. Laban agreed to this.

Laban set apart those goats and put them in charge of his sons, three days distance from Jacob. The rest was left to Jacob to tend to. Here is what happened next.

Jacob took fresh boughs of poplar, almond, and plane and peeled white streaks in them exposing the white of the boughs. He laid the peeled sticks in front of the flocks, in the runnels of the watering troughs where the flocks drank and they bred when they came to drink. As they did so in front of the sticks - Jacob assumed they brought forth young that were striped, speckled and spotted. Jacob kept these separate. He also laid sticks in the runnels only when the stronger animals came to breed, leaving the weaker animals to breed without the sticks.

He may have done this due to the unscientific principal of prenatal influence. There is, in fact, no nerve connection between the mother and unborn young which would support the maternal impressions theory that Jacob incorporated but the question is, did the Bible support such an unscientific theory?

The answer is no. Why?

The law of Lycurgus decreed that Spartan women should look upon the statues of Castor and Pollux so that their offspring would be imparted with strength and beauty. Hippocrates taught that strong emotions experienced by the pregnant woman could give rise to deformities in the child and Aristotle believed that many women brought forth children with harelip after seeing a hare and other deformities were due to "the imagination of the mother, who has cast her eyes and mind upon some ill-shaped creature. Egypt's sacred bull of Memphis with one or two eagle shaped figures on its back and a crescent on its forehead had to be killed when it was 25 years old but before doing so the priests had to supply a similarly marked successor. They surrounded their cows by appropriately shaped and colored objects.

There is no question of the ancient belief in prenatal influence, but as mentioned earlier, the real question is does the Bible agree?

Remember that just because Jacob thought there was something to it doesn't mean that the Bible concurs. In fact, there is the answer to the question. The Bible doesn't.

In the next chapter Jacob tells his wives, Laban's daughters Leah and Rachel, why he prospered. He doesn't give the credit to his prenatal influence scheme, but rather to God. "In this way God has taken the stock from your father and given it to me. When the stock was breeding, I raised my eyes in a dream and saw that the he-goats that leaped on the she-goats were striped, speckled, and mottled. The angel of God said to me in the dream, 'Jacob!' 'Yes,' said I. And he said, 'Raise your eyes, look! all the he-goats that leap on the she-goats are striped, speckled, and mottled.'" - Genesis 31:9-12

It is obvious that the hybrids were uniformly colored themselves but carried in their germ cells the hereditary factors for spotting and speckling. Laws of heredity as discovered by Gregor Mendel in the 19th century.

Both Jacob and Laban acknowledged Jehovah rather than prenatal influence as the deciding factor, so the Bible doesn't support the notion of prenatal influence and the Bible critics - the atheists - have it wrong again. (Genesis 30:27-30 / 31:5, 7, 9, 16)

Isn't it a biological truth that hybrids are stronger than uncrossed breeds? Like Jacob mentioned. So his would have been stronger while Laban's weaker?

Jacob set out thinking that prenatal influence was the way to go but realized in the end that Jehovah God was in charge, rather than silly superstition. ]]> The Theist http://www.volconvo.com/forums/entry905.html http://www.volconvo.com/forums/entry904.html Wed, 23 May 2012 19:59:08 GMT Insects Legs

The Bible critic will sometimes make the uninformed claim that the Bible isn't scientific because it says that insects have four legs.

Leviticus 11:20-23 - Every winged swarming creature that goes on all fours is a loathsome thing to you. Only this is what you may eat of all the winged swarming creatures that go upon all fours, those that have leaper legs above their feet with which to leap upon the earth. These are the ones of them you may eat of: the migratory locust according to its kind, and the edible locust after its kind, and the cricket according to its kind, and the grasshopper according to its kind. And every other winged swarming creature that does have four legs is a loathsome thing to you.

In 11:22 a the Hebrew word arbeh is translated "locust" and is the migratory locust, fully developed and winged. The Hebrew word yeleq refers to the creeping, wingless locust, the immature undeveloped locust. (Joel 1:4) and the Hebrew term solam refers to the edible locust as in 11:22 b. That is a leper locust rather than a flier. The Greek akris is rendered "insect locust" and "locust." (Matthew 3:4 / Revelation 9:7)

The leaper insect has two pairs of wings, four walking legs and two much longer leaper legs.

The question put forth by the Bible critic is, does the Bible say that insects have four legs when it says that they are 'going on all fours?' The answer of course is no. The writers of the Bible - in this case, Moses - were not scientist of entomology and botany, but we are talking about Moses' dietary restrictions. They ate the insects. They would have noticed how many legs they had and would have been capable of making the distinction between a leaper insect that actually had six legs but walked on four, or in fact would not have been far removed from using the expression even when considering six legged insects who walk as if on all fours like a four legged creature. We would use the term walking on all four legs in application to a two legged human doing the same.

To me it is an example of how far the Bible critic has to stretch the obvious truth in order to substantiate or promote propaganda rather than learning the application of rational thinking. In the name of science? ]]> The Theist http://www.volconvo.com/forums/entry904.html http://www.volconvo.com/forums/entry903.html Wed, 23 May 2012 06:13:15 GMT Deus ex machina, if you don't already know, is a Latin term which means "god from the machine." Its a literary devise in which an improbable source is presented to solve a difficulty in a theatrical or literary work. For example, in The Lord Of The Flies the navy officer is presented to save the children stranded on the Island. Or in the Life of Brian the spaceship picks him up when he falls from the tall building.

The term comes from the mechanical devises in Greek theater which were sometimes used to present the god, or mighty one. It could be a mechanical platform that is raised or lowered. Since these devises were operated by hand it could be said that deus ex machina is more accurately translated as "god of our own hands."

Brian Warner, aka Marlyn Manson said in his song, Disposable Teens: "I never really hated one true god, but the god of the people I hated!" In my irreligious mind as a Bible student who has been debating atheists for nearly two decades I think the distinction between the two, the one true God and the god of the people is an important one. One I don't think that atheists and skeptics of the Bible often make. The god of the people is the god that they themselves created, and although I wouldn't insist the skeptic acknowledge the one true God as such but make the distinction of a difference between the God of the Bible, Jehovah, and the god of Christendom.

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Another Latin term I find interesting, this one more for its historical usage, is the term Deus Vult. God wills it. It was the declaration of the first crusade. Similar, I suppose, to Deus ex machina, in that there is that distinction between what God wills and what the god of the people wills. ]]> The Theist http://www.volconvo.com/forums/entry903.html http://www.volconvo.com/forums/entry896.html Mon, 14 May 2012 08:25:52 GMT I have this peculiar response to art that is, at least to me, so profoundly beautiful in that it literally reduces me to tears. Watching Peter Jackson's Lord Of The Rings, Reading Frank Herbert's Dune Messiah, Seeing Claude Lorrain's Seaport By Moonlight and listening to many Bob Dylan songs - such as this one. The video itself is also a beautiful work of art in it's own right.



Shadows are falling and I’ve been here all day
It’s too hot to sleep, time is running away
Feel like my soul has turned into steel
I’ve still got the scars that the sun didn’t heal
There’s not even room enough to be anywhere
It’s not dark yet, but it’s getting there
Well, my sense of humanity has gone down the drain
Behind every beautiful thing there’s been some kind of pain
She wrote me a letter and she wrote it so kind
She put down in writing what was in her mind
I just don’t see why I should even care
It’s not dark yet, but it’s getting there
Well, I’ve been to London and I’ve been to gay Paree
I’ve followed the river and I got to the sea
I’ve been down on the bottom of a world full of lies
I ain’t looking for nothing in anyone’s eyes
Sometimes my burden seems more than I can bear
It’s not dark yet, but it’s getting there
I was born here and I’ll die here against my will
I know it looks like I’m moving, but I’m standing still
Every nerve in my body is so vacant and numb
I can’t even remember what it was I came here to get away from
Don’t even hear a murmur of a prayer
It’s not dark yet, but it’s getting there


Copyright © 1997 by Special Rider Music ]]> The Theist http://www.volconvo.com/forums/entry896.html http://www.volconvo.com/forums/entry893.html Sun, 13 May 2012 14:34:30 GMT *Seven Days* The Hebrew word yohm translated day is used like this in the Bible. 1. The period of light, daylight. Proverbs 4:18. 2. The 24-hour period, day and night. - Genesis 7:17. 3.... Seven Days

The Hebrew word yohm translated day is used like this in the Bible.

1. The period of light, daylight. Proverbs 4:18.

2. The 24-hour period, day and night. - Genesis 7:17.

3. Any period of time characterized by certain events which may be time in general; a long time; an entire period under consideration; a particular season or time of any extraordinary event. (William Wilson's "Old Testament Word Studies." Some example of these are listed below.
a. Summer and winter. Passing seasons. Zechariah 14:8.
b. A "day" as being many days. Ezekiel 38:14, 16 (Compare Proverbs 25:13 and Genesis 30:14).
c. A thousand years or a watch in the night consisting of four hours. Psalm 90:4 (Compare 2 Peter 3:8, 10).
d. The "day" of salvation spanning thousand of years. Isaiah 49:8.
e. Judgment "Day" lasting many years. Matthew 10:15 / 11:22-24.
f. A mans lifetime being a day. Noah's day and Lot's day.
g. The division of that "day" as in terms such as "in the morning or dawn of his life," and "in the evening or sunset of his life." Luke 17:26, 28. The Jerusalem Bible.

So in the Hebrew, the word translated day, yohm, can mean any period of time from a few hours to time indefinite. On the seventh day God rested. God's day or period of rest indicated a time in which, not that he wasn't doing anything, but that he was giving mankind the time to fulfill his purpose on earth. To fill and subdue it and live in peace forever from then on.

Adam's sin put a halt on that. It was impossible for mankind to fulfill that purpose as Jehovah God intended under sin, so, thousands of years later David, and then still thousands of years more later Paul, mentioned God's day of rest as continuing. (Genesis 2:2 / Psalm 95:11 / Hebrews 4:1-5) So this day consists, so far, of a period shortly after Adam was created until the present day and beyond.

This careful consideration of the Hebrew word for day, yohm, as used in the creation account doesn't imply that the earth was created in 6 literal days. But that isn't even necessary because the structuring of Genesis 1:1. From The Theist | Academic's Annotated Bible: Genesis 1 the following can be found. Each number corresponds to that verse in the chapter. It demonstrates how the earth and universe were complete at Genesis 1:1, before the creative days began. It also clears some confusion skeptics often have about the order of the creation of the luminaries.

Genesis 1:1 The Hebrew verb consists of two different states. The perfect state indicates an action which is complete, whereas the imperfect state indicates a continuous or incomplete action. At Genesis 1:1 the word bara, translated as created, is in the perfect state, which means that at this point the creation of the heavens and the Earth were completed. Later, as in Genesis 1:16 the Hebrew word asah, translated as made, is used, which is in the imperfect state, indicating continuous action. The heavens and Earth were created in verse 1 and an indeterminate time later they were being prepared for habitation, much the same as a bed is manufactured (complete) and made (continuous) afterwards.

Genesis 1:2 The planet was a water planet, waste and empty, meaning that there was no productive land. Though the sun and moon as part of the heavens were complete, at this point light had not penetrated to the surface of the Earth. Job 38:4, 9 refers to a "swaddling band" around the Earth in the early stages of creation. Likely there was a cosmic dust cloud of vapor and debris which prevented the light from the sun from being visible on the surface of the earth. The Hebrew word ruach, translated as spirit, indicates any invisible active force. Wind, breath, or mental inclination, for example. The Holy Spirit is Jehovah God's active force. Invisible to man but producing results. Throughout scripture it is often referred to as God's hands or fingers in a metaphorical sense. (Psalm 8:3; 19:1)

Genesis 1:3] Here the Hebrew verb waiyomer (proceeded to say) is in the imperfect state indicating progressive action. This first chapter of Genesis has more than 40 cases of the imperfect state. The creative "days" were a gradual process of making Earth habitable. The light was a diffused light which gradually grew in intensity. Some translations more clearly indicate the progressive action: A Distinctive Translation of Genesis by J.W. Watts (1963): "Afterward God proceeded to say, 'Let there be light'; and gradually light came into existence." Benjamin Wills Newton's translation (1888): "And God proceeded to say [future], Let Light become to be, and Light proceeded to become to be [future]." The Hebrew word for light, ohr, is used. This distinguishes the light from the source of the light. Later, on the fourth "day" the Hebrew word maohr is used, signifying that the source of the light only becomes visible then through the swaddling band.

Genesis 1:5 Here the Hebrew word yohm translated day, indicates the daylight hours, but the term will be applied in the following verses to indicate various lengths of time. The word is used to describe any period of time from a few hours to thousands of years. (Zechariah 14:8 / Proverbs 25:13 / Psalm 90:4 / Isaiah 49:8 / Matthew 10:15) The terms evening and morning are metaphoric. At this point there are no witnesses on Earth to a literal night and day, but there are witnesses in heaven. (Job 38:4, 7) The evening symbolizes the period of time in which the events unfolding were indiscernible to the angels in heaven. The morning symbolizes the period in which the angels could distinguish what had been accomplished. (Proverbs 4:18)

Genesis 1:14 The light in verse 14 is different from that in verse 3. In verse 3 the Hebrew word ohr is used, meaning the light from the source. Light in a general sense, whereas the light in verse 14 the Hebrew word maohr is used, signifying the source of the light is now visible. See [3] The sun, moon and stars are set as a sign of the seasons, days and years. A most accurate timepiece. The use of the term "sign" is often mistaken as a reference to astrology, which is incorrect.

Genesis 1:16 The Hebrew waiyaas (proceeded to make), from asah, in verse 16 is different than bara (create) in verses 1, 21 and 27. Asah is the imperfect state indicating progressive action. The luminaries as part of the heavens had already been completed in verse 1, but now they were visible on Earth and prepared for their intended use. Asah can mean make, or appoint (Deuteronomy 15:1), establish (2 Samuel 7:11), form (Jeremiah 18:4), or prepare (Genesis 21:8).

Genesis 1:31 God's creation is good. There is no sickness, disease or slow progression to death. The small area they reside in is a paradise reflective of the potential, and in fact the purpose of growing throughout the entire planet. It isn't God's purpose for us to live in sin on Earth and then move on to heaven. The creative days, each of which may have lasted thousands or even millions of years, and had taken place an indeterminate period of time after the creation was complete in verse one, are not indicative of any speculation regarding the age of the Earth and universe. The Bible simply doesn't say.

Period 1 - Light; a division between night and day (Genesis 1:3-5)
Period 2 - The Expanse; a division between waters above and beneath. (Genesis 1:6-8)
Period 3 - Dry land and vegetation. (Genesis 1:9-13)
Period 4 - Heavenly luminaries become visible from Earth. (Genesis 1:14-19)
Period 5 - Aquatic and flying creatures. (Genesis 1:20-23)
Period 6 - Land animals and man. (Genesis 1:24-31) ]]> The Theist http://www.volconvo.com/forums/entry893.html http://www.volconvo.com/forums/entry892.html Sun, 13 May 2012 01:31:36 GMT *Pi And The Bible* In modern mathematical calculations pi, which denotes the ration of the circumference of a circle to its diameter, is generally a quantity equivalent to 3.1416. It is actually... Pi And The Bible

In modern mathematical calculations pi, which denotes the ration of the circumference of a circle to its diameter, is generally a quantity equivalent to 3.1416. It is actually more accurate to say that pi can be carried to at least eight decimal places, which would be 3.14159265, though even 3.1415926535 can be used.

Bible skeptics often conclude that the Bible writers of 1 Kings 7:23 and 2 Chronicles 4:2, where the circular molten sea in the courtyard of Solomon's temple was ten cubits from brim to brim and that "it took a line of thirty cubits to circle all around it" can't be correct because it is impossible to have a circle with these two values.

How, the short sighted skeptic asks, could God's word being written under inspiration be so inaccurate?

Short sighted because the decimal point didn't exist at the time so it would have been pointless - ha - and because, as Bible commentator Christian Wordsworth, quoting Rennie, said: "Up to the time of Archimedes [third century B.C.E.], the circumference of a circle was always measured in straight lines by the radius; and Hiram would naturally describe the sea as thirty cubits round, measuring it, as was then invariably the practice, by its radius, or semi diameter, of five cubits, which being applied six times round the perimeter, or 'brim,' would give the thirty cubits stated. There was evidently no intention in the passage but to give the dimensions of the Sea, in the usual language that every one would understand, measuring the circumference in the way in which all skilled workers, like Hiram, did measure circles at that time. He, of course, must however have known perfectly well, that as the polygonal hexagon thus inscribed by the radius was thirty cubits, the actual curved circumference would be somewhat more."

The Bible student, using reason and research over the baseless speculation of the unwashed heathen knows that the molten sea was 10 cubits (15 feet) in diameter and it took a line of 30 cubits (45 feet) to encompass it. A ratio of one to three was adequate for the sake of a record. ]]> The Theist http://www.volconvo.com/forums/entry892.html http://www.volconvo.com/forums/entry891.html Sun, 13 May 2012 01:10:28 GMT *Bats And Birds* Many Bible critics will often make the incorrect assumption that the Bible confuses bats with being birds, and this is not the case. The reasoning behind this incorrect assumption... Bats And Birds

Many Bible critics will often make the incorrect assumption that the Bible confuses bats with being birds, and this is not the case. The reasoning behind this incorrect assumption is due to a misunderstanding of Leviticus 11:13-20. We are talking about the implication that science minded atheists, rational thinking people, make regarding the claim that the Bible can not distinguish between birds or fowl, and bats and insects.

Here is a brief lesson in Hebrew that will be of some help. The word used at Leviticus 11:13 is ohph, which is sometimes translated incorrectly as birds, and sometimes as fowl. It is important to note that the English word fowl applied not only to birds, but all winged flying creatures such as insects and bats. So, although the word fowl in translation is accurate it is often misunderstood due to the fact that today the English word fowl is somewhat more limited than it used to be, applying to birds only.

The Hebrew word for bat is ataleph.
The Hebrew word for flying creature or fowl (as in all flying creatures including birds, bats, and insects) is ohph.
The Hebrew word for birds in general is tsippohr.
The Hebrew word for birds of prey specifically is ayit.

The Hebrew word sherets is drawn from a root word that means to "swarm" "or teem." In noun form applies to small creatures to be found in large numbers. (Exodus 8:3 / Psalm 105:30) In scripture it first applies to the initial appearance on the fifth creative day when the waters began to swarm with living souls. Genesis 1:20

Fowl do not swarm in the waters.

The law regarding clean and unclean things demonstrates that the term applies to aquatic creatures (Leviticus 11:10) winged creatures, including bats and insects (Leviticus 11:19-31 / Deuteronomy 14:19) land creatures such as rodents, lizards, chameleons (Leviticus 11:29-31) creatures traveling on their "belly" and multi-legged creatures (Leviticus 11:41-44).

The English word fowl is primarily used today to refer to a large or edible bird. The Hebrew term ohph, which is derived from the verb fly, applied to all winged or flying creatures. (Genesis 1:20-22) So the Hebrew (ohph) is not so limited in usage as the English word fowl much like the old English cattle.

It isn't about taxonomy it is about language and translation. ]]> The Theist http://www.volconvo.com/forums/entry891.html http://www.volconvo.com/forums/entry890.html Sun, 13 May 2012 01:06:55 GMT Noah's Ark

Noah's ark was designed to carry Noah and his family along with animals through the global deluge of 2370 - 2369 B.C.E. The ark (Hebrew tevah, Greek kibotos) was rectangular, a chest, actually, having square corners and a flat bottom. It was designed simply to float, without the need of steering and to be watertight. This shape, not only would make capsizing very improbable but also allowed for one third more space. The roof had a 4% pitch, 1 cubit elevation - 25 cubits from wall to ridge, which allowed for water flow off.

It was 300 cubits long, 50 cubits wide and 30 cubits high. The ancient cubit was 17.5 in. (44.5 cm), although some think it nearer 56 or 61 cm. which means the ark measured 437 ft 6 in x 72 ft 11 in x 43 ft 9 in. (133.5 m by 22.3 m by 13.4 m) which is less than half the length of the Queen Elizabeth II. The proportion of length to width being 6 to 1 is also used by modern naval architects.

It had approximately 1, 400, 000 cu ft (40,000 cu m) in gross volume, with a displacement comparable to the 883 ft (269 m) Titanic. It was strengthened internally by the addition of two floors. With three decks it would have a total of approximately 96, 000 sq ft (8, 900 sq m) of space.

For light and ventilation there was an opening a cubit in height near the roof which extended around the four sides, 1, 500 sq ft (140 s1 m).

The wood used was of a resinous tree, probably cypress or similar. Cypress was favored by shipbuilders such as the Phoenicians and Alaxander the Great, even to the present day. Noah was instructed not only to caulk the seams but to cover the ark inside and outside with tar.

Bitumen And Pitch

Bitumen is a black or brownish asphalt. There are three Hebrew words which describe first it's degree of hardness: zepheth is pitch, the liquid form and chemar is bitumen, it's solid state. Kopher, tar, describes it's usage. An application overlaying woodwork. The ark which Moses as a baby floated down the Nile was covered with both bitumen and pitch, rendering it watertight (Exodus 2:3) and the builders of Babylon used the bitumen for not only its waterproofing but its adhesiveness for mortar in kiln dried bricks. (Genesis 11:3)

Cargo

Noah's ark had, without a doubt, a most interesting passenger list. Noah, his wife, three sons and their wives as well as two of every sort of animal, seven of each of the animals considered to be clean. Also food for over a year. Many people grossly overestimate the number of animals involved here because they don't understand that the Bible means every kind, a term which differs a great deal from the biological term. There wasn't a need, for example for Noah to include every breed of dog or cat, just two or 7 (if clean) of each.

It has been estimated that 43 kinds of mammals, 74 kinds of birds and 10 kinds of reptiles could have produced the variety of species known today. A more liberal estimate is 72 kinds of quadruped and less than 200 kinds of bird kinds would have sufficed. There is about 1, 300, 000 species of animals but 60% of those are insects. Of the 24, 000 amphibians, reptiles, birds and mammals, 9, 000 are are reptiles and amphibians and 10, 000 are birds - many of which could have survived outside the ark.

Of the 5, 000 mammals, which would include whales and porpoises who would have stayed outside the ark, 290 are larger than a sheep and 1, 360 are smaller than rats.

Plenty of room for Noah's family as well as for all animals and their food ]]> The Theist http://www.volconvo.com/forums/entry890.html