[shunyadragon]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Impenitent,)


not at all...

according to kant, the human mind creates time and space

there is still no need for a prime mover

'According to Kant???

I do not believe Kant. The statement 'the human mind creates time in space.' is a premise I don't accept. The 'need' for a prime mover is reaching beyond the known and a statement of faith. For those who believe in God the 'need' is there. For those who don't there is no 'need'.

It is possible that cause and effect are the result of the greater laws of existence and effect is not dependent on cause.

Assumptions are big part of why we disagree, but when you are in the middle of two unknowns, assumptions are the basis of what people believe.

1. I don't think Kant was totally correct either, but that is his premise... and I have yet to see it effectively refuted (time and space are constructs of the human mind as irremovable goggles of perception) the need for a prime mover is the same as the need for cause and effect...

2. Hume showed how human logic cannot make any claims to cause and effect because cause and effect predictions are based on a fallacy... 'greater laws' of existence? my god er 'greater law' says you are wrong...

3. assumption is the mother of all fuck ups<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

Assumptions like these basically cannot be refuted, simply because they are assumptions of the intangible nature of existence beyond cause and effect and the beginning of time and space.

With the assumption that time, space, and cause and effect are real. because we have no tangible evidence on the contrary. Therefore every effect must have a cause. With these assumptions I will assume that there has to be a source for existence to be real. But then again I must conclude if my assumptions apply in all cases, there must be source for the source ad infinitem.

I prefer the assumption that cause and effect are a product of the greater laws of existence that we postulate as the laws of nature. In this way cause and effect is product of the nature of existence and does not need a cause.

But, I do believe there is a cause and existence is very real. If existence is an illusion, it is a very beautiful, awful, terrible, tragic, wonderful, great, painful, pleasurable, fantasic picture show someone else is watching.

Your assumption #3 sums it up well.