Scribbler... I canot tell you how good it makes me feel to see someone out there who is actually willing to see the problem as it is. If more people would see this and stop scapegoating we reallly might make some headway.
Osborne,
If "this is all about being fair to everyone, not just the poor" I wouuld like it to stay focused on WHO we are talking about here. NOT the poor, NOR the taxpayers.
It is the teachers who are losing their jobs because they are taking on a monumentally difficult task.
THAT is who we are talking about being fair to.
I realize that "taxpayers" seem to always manage to get into this with the "but what about me?" thing, but
we are not talking about WHO is PAYING for anything here. That topic can be found on nearly every thread in this forum.
We are talking about taking professionals undertaking a nearly impossible task and firing them if they do not meet the same criteria as those in less challanging situations.
We are talking about fairness to people in an honorable profession.
We are talking about a difficult educational problem that is NOT being solved by firing those trying to fix it.
We are talking about a job that has a decreasing number of incomming candidates and eliminating those already in the profession.
We are talking about a profession where we desire to acquire good qualified people and we offer the reward of blame, poor pay, and finally termination if they take on the toughest (hardest to fill) positions.
Quote:
Osborne
....in my opinion, I believe M5 is basing how "things are all over" based on her local situation, and experience. I know having lived in this part of Ohio my whole life, knowing people in private and public schools, there is quite a difference in curriculum here.
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With all due respect Osborn it appears to me that you are doing more localized observing than I am.
My current location is not the only locale where I have been a multi-school speech pathologist. I have been in the profession over 30 years. You have, by your own admisiion, lived iin the same area for your whole life and are implying that there is a carriculum difference in your area's private schools that could make a difference.
NOTE: Please do ont get sidtracked on who pays for it. Private/public, tax, charity, donation, mana from heaven....... Our point here is solving the problem not who is footing the bill.
Lets globalize then Osborne..
1. Failing schools are evident all over the nation. Nealy ALL of them are inner city or poor rural areas. This is global. So are you suggesting that it just happens that these poor area schools have carriculum deficits that are not present in the succeeding schools all over the nation?
2. If there is a carriculum out there that is working on these failing populations you, and your local private schools, could become VERY wealthy training and selling this information to public schools all over the country. Surely you know these people desperately WANT to improve these scores.
Even if you are one of those that believe only the lazy and apathetic work in poor schools you must know they are trying like hell to keep their jobs.
3. This one is very important and cuts to the chase. Here are my non-localized specifics as to the problems.
1. Higher drug/alchahol addiction in target area scools among parents and students. Resulting in lack of participation, homework follow-through, parent involvment etc.
2. Higher absenteeism/truency in the poor areas.
3. Higher drop out (and anticipated drop out) rates in the students.
4. Cultural distain for the education process.
5. Enablemennt of the lazy and slothful both in families and students to shed their own responsibilites and blame the teaching staff.
6. Higher crime in both the neighborhoods and in the schools themselves.
These are but a few and can be verified with any demographics study for any city with a population of over 500,000 and in most smaller cities as well. NOT local observations.
NOW... in the interest of fair debate... please specify some of the carriculum differences in your local private schools that will aleviate these global problems.
Please do not be general and say "local (whoever) can better tailor their needs to their own population". They have that leeway in the public schools too.
Be specific.... WHAT carriculum differences?
You will not just be making a good debate point, you may be opening the eyes and showing the educational system something it has been missing.
Oh,
and please please please stop dodging this......
MY CHALLLANGE (funny answers accepted but serious ones would be appriciated.
SO
Is a policeman who is willing to take a job in inner city Detroit
a). The kind of person we need and admire.
b). Someone who should be fired in 4 years if he cannot get the crime in his precinct to the national average.
c.) Someone who sholuld hold off until the private sector takes over policing the area because the job will be easier to do then.
d). A damned fool who should know better than to take the job.
(if you answer d please tell me what you think we should do about policing the target area)
Is a teacher who is willing to take a job in inner city Detroit
a). The kind of person we need and admire.
b). Someone who should be fired in 4 years if he cannot get the test scores in his school to the national average.
c.) Someone who sholuld hold off until the private sector takes over the school because the job will be easier to do then.
d). A damned fool who should know better than to take the job.
(if you answer d please tell me what you think we should do about educating the target population).