OK, folks, as promised, here is the second column.
First, some quotes from our ongoing conversation about how, and if, society owes us. I tried to use as many as possible, but tried to focus in on the ones that kept to the topic or opened only a slightly different path. Sorry if I missed some of you.
Protection from police, welfare handouts, and other handouts are a luxury, not a privilege. When people start *expecting* to get free money even if they don't work, they wont work..-
castille What society owes us is a fair shot.-
Tess At this point, I would prefer to see less phony "civility" and "hard-work" and more genuine interest in each other,more warmth and humanity in this world. -
syracusa I don't think it's so much that society owes anybody anything, but that making sure others have what they need to survive and be healthy ensures that we'll be okay if we need such things. -
Gorgo As for what society owes us?...Life..in other words..you get to live...Liberty, the freedom to make your own choices in life and follow your own dreams without hindrance....Pursuit of happiness...you get out of life what you put into it.....
It was never our Founding Fathers intent to develop a welfare-laden society..Johnson may have had noble intentions with his New Deal initiatives...but they have long since been destroyed by a self-perpetuating system of entitlements and a victim mentality..that only the government can help me out....with someone else's money that is. -
ACause Trouble is, as long as a person thanks this, they
a) aren't so well motivated to go sort things out themselves, as they think someone else ought to help them with it,
b) resent and blame others for not delivering what they imagine they're owed, an attitude that causes all sorts of failures, as well as emotional disappointment. -
Lava Society owes us for taxes that we pay, obviously, and society owes itself. A society filled with homeless and the down and out is like a stuck sink or toilet. It doesn't work well, if at all. Some societies put such people into ovens or shoot them. No thanks. Therefore I believe in a more humane solution. Society owes itself to survive so civilization can survive. Otherwise, given our killer instinct, we be less civilized than most animals. -
Ken Carman If you don't have a job, you get free money (a pretty stupid concept).-Castille We all, 'owe', IMO, it to anyone we see in need , to fill whatever part of the need we are able to. Then they 'owe' it to do the same for someone else. Then 'they' now owe it to "Pay It Forward".
I was helped when I needed it last week, by several people. I was blessed enough to meet two homeless people I could then pay some forward to.- Mia People don't care about what you care about, well tough. From one ignorant American to another, stay out of my business! -Compugasm Do people expect help from society. Absolutely!
Societies, or cultures, or tribes, or gangs, or groups. or organizations, or family units were formed based on the idea that people help one another.
People tend to live in groups for that reason. Because some help is expected.
Does it always turn out that way.... Nope! -
m5lange1
When I wrote this column, started the threads, a few weeks ago, I was surprised by where the conversation went. Conversing with others, when it's at it's best, is like unwrapping a never ending present that never stops enlightening the mind. Twists, turns, right angles; all these descriptives can be used to decorate the process. Of course there are always less pleasant ways to describe the process occasionally, like when people banter back and forth about which one in the discussion is a Hitler. Some enjoy such heated exchanges directed at each other, but to me it has always seemed like all those abusive, "destroy the village to save it," inner family squabbles. It solves nothing and creates a lot of hate.
In this column I'd like to set up a model society. Feel free to burn it down, add, subtract or make fun of it. I will be no one's Hitler and demand my model be followed or agreed with, but there will always be someone out there who thinks I am "Hitler" even for suggesting it.
What kind of society do we want? At one extreme we have a society that might take care of us and keep us from falling, cradle to grave. At the other end we have a society that stands back and helps no one. "Every man to himself," is the cliche'. Obviously neither of these concepts is acceptable. Paraphrasing Lava's quote I placed at the start of this column, a society that prevents everyone from falling would be doomed to fail. People need to achieve and being "taken care of" to that extreme won't encourage them to do that. Yet do we really want a society where every person totally stays out of the affairs of others? I don't think so. Murder? Pedophile? Rape victims? Government rightful steps in through the actions of police, judges and, yes I hate to admit it, even lawyers. Or is addressing such criminal acts merely a luxury, as Castille seems to suggest?
"Pay it forward" is a great concept that I recommend people follow, but I'm afraid society is far too selfish for "pay it forward" to be anything but a great addition to our culture on a small scale. I've known too many who take what's offered and never pay it forward and then sneak back and use what was given to beat you, insult you and maybe even kill you. The lesson? Great concept, but it won't solve the problem and a little suspicion isn't always a bad thing. Helping people means holding back support sometimes.
So where do we go from here to build a better society?
To quote myself, "A society filled with homeless and the down and out is like a stuck sink or toilet. It doesn't work well, if at all."
The homeless, the down and out, are here whether we like it or not. Ignoring them won't solve anything. But just giving them money won't work either. On an individualistic level "paying it forward" will help, but never solve, the problem.
So, how would I build what I consider a more ideal society? I would recommend that such folks be given no money, but just enough housing, transportation and food that they might use these gifts as a platform from which to take wing, or wallow in their waste if they must. There will always be those who refuse to achieve, but isn't it better for us that they be less in our way? Let them live on the streets and they will be in our way. Force them upon our hard working families and we may have just doubled or tripled the problem.
Included in this more "ideal society" must be some counseling especially for those with mental problems and self-abusive behavior. What do I mean by "self-abusive behavior?" I believe that people often get caught in a maze of their own making that they simply don't see a way out of. They need to be shown the way, politely. If they don't take it, then we should mostly leave them alone and waste as little resources as possible on them.
I'm not recommending these things because I'm suggesting we become a more "bleeding heart" country. I suggest them because like the "stuck toilet" simile I referred to, "Wasting as little resources" to some means offering them nothing and I believe that is counter productive. Societies are based on people gathering together to help each other, Even wolves hunt in packs. When government started funding super-highways it helped us all, just like when they funded municipal sewage and water. Corporations certainly can help but it must always be remembered that corporations are more interested in the bottom line, profit, than they are in us. If they could get away with selling a "pig in a poke" too many of them would. That's not to insult the many fine, civic minded, business owners out there who just want to sell a good product. Hell, I'm one of them myself.
Yes, society owes us, but only because it owes itself. Because society, by definition, is a group of living beings it should function in the best interests of those individuals. The best interest is not served by homeless people in our streets, the mentally ill unchecked or the suicidal, the enraged, the downtrodden ignored. It only creates more problems for those who are fitting into society. If we only address the problems once they have done something that requires the police or the mortician, we are abusing ourselves. Constant crisis management is a damn bad way to manage a society.
Compassion, done right, profits society. But how do we promote compassion? You can't legislate it. Anyone who has ever had to use what little social safety net we have knows there's nothing "compassionate" about dealing with Bureaucrats. Our churches try to promote it but often are too busy trying to promote hate at the same time, hate for liberals, conservatives, the homeless, gays, fundamentalists, secular humanists... so many targets of convenience. Is it any surprise that there's so much anguish out there?
Perhaps George Bush, Senior had the right idea, even if it was only a meaningless campaign phrase meant to siphon off votes: "a kinder and gentler nation." If our leaders lead, I believe the nation will follow.
If only hate wasn't more profitable than compassion. It's also a lot easier than compassion. That's sad, because unless our leaders lead the way we are all like spelunkers who are lost in a very long and very dangerous cave, but each individual decides to head in a different direction and keep what we little we think we know about the way out to ourselves. Our flashlight batteries are dying. And considering just how dangerous to ourselves we have become, if we continue down this pitch black path, like the dinosaurs... so will we.
(More about this topic can be found at
http://www.politicalpuzzle.org/inspection . This topic can also be found at
http://slantleft.com. Please look for the appropriate "Inspection" block. The topic that started this thread can be found here, at Volconvo: Society and Rights. It is called "Suicide Legality." All quotes are the property of the posters but were edited specifically to serve the topic at hand. The author apologizes in advance for not editing these comments to satisfy any poster's specific taste, but I didn't have the option of you staring over my shoulder when I did this, did I?
Thank God. Like so many accident causing back seat drivers, I often find editors to be a such a royal pain in the...)