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darwinist · Dec 14, 2003, 05:35 pm

white rice

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
I don't remember anything when I was 2 or before. Doesn't mean I didn't learn anything, but I think increased receptivity in behavior expands years beyond that. I don't think orphan infants have their fates sealed before they meet their adoptive parents.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Me neither. That is why i mentioned the subconscious. For it is a fact, that we did learn somethings during this time. Learning to talk and walk are the two best examples that come to mind. The reason i mentioned the subconscious. Is that in some circles. It is thought, to be an indirect memory 'device'. It also been mentioned, that the subconscious protects us.

I did not mean to imply, that anyone's fate where sealed. Only that by the time we become 'teenages'. That most of society has done a good job, of moulding our thoughts, personality and actions. Due to the environment, each and everyone of us has been brought up in. Each environment unique, due to our parents. How they have been moulded. etc... But even as you get older. You fate, i believe is never truely sealed.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
Greed in its purest form is attaining a need or want at the expense of everything else. That would be counterproductive in a social species that most often requires cooperation to survive. It's been shown tha<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Thanks for the link. I going to check it out. I believe, that to understand who we truely are. You must understand, where you have come from.

Waychel

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
I was not claiming that human behavior is genetic entirely, if this is what you interpreted me as saying. My point was that as children, we are raised due to society's standards to either turn away entirely from our worst perceived primitive traits or learn to control them.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

I did not mean to imply that you where claiming this. The reason i posted this. Is that Wilson is the most famous person that believes in Sociobiology. This is the whole aspect of the 4 drives mentioned. As i am not totally convinced that 'greed' is a basic trait. That it is more a bye product of these drives. So i posted this quote. As a sort of fail safe. Let us assume, for the moment. That 'greed' is a basic trait. Even Wilson says, that the basic drive is only 10% of our responsible actions. Our environment is responsible for 90%. Our environment being an Capitalist Represenative Society. Which promotes 'greed' as the best means of survivial. When humans are 'fighting' for survivial, they become self involed. Selfish and greedy creatures. Also this takes on a more ominous state of affairs. If we are 'fighting' for our survivial. Then we are not thinking about 'our' situation. In simple terms, this means. If we are 'fighting' each other. We can not group together, to fight the system. Have you noticed, how western society. Has become more 'selfish' and 'apathetic'. During the last 30 years. The system 'crushing' any rebellion. The 'rockers', 'mods', 'hippies' and 'punks'. All gone. Corrupting all those, who come into power. By working for the system. You become the system. ( Now i have wander off topic, by a mile... :) )

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
Greed is, in my opinion, just another word for absolute self-concern in relation to our most primitive drive of self-preservation. To succeed in one's environment socially and economically is to survive, and competitiveness is an aspect of this. Greed however, is another thing entirely.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

I think 'greed' is an excessive desire for something. That why i think it is a bye product of the survivial instict. For example, if threaten by a 'food shortage'. One might become 'greedy', horde all the food. Fight anyone for the food. In order to survive.

But then you also have to consider the following:-

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
A peculiar omission from the sociobiologists’ subdivisions of human nature is the faculty of reason itself. Stephen Jay Gould indirectly drew attention to this in his criticism of a claim that Eskimo behavior sometimes validates altruist genes. When food is scarce and an Eskimo family must move, grandparents sometimes stay behind to die rather than slow down the entire family. Here, genes are redundant, Gould points out. Old Eskimos can simply figure it out for themselves, and may be given an incentive to stay behind in families where “sacrifice is celebrated in song and story; aged grandparents who stay behind become the greatest heroes of the clan.” Once reason is admitted as a characteristic of human nature—and in truth it is the characteristic, along with freedom of the will—it can be shown to do the work imputed to phantom genes in almost any example that sociobiologists want to bring up.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

The greater sacrifice. Flying in the face of 'greed' and the 'survivial instict'. Sacrifice yourself, for your gene's being passed on. Giving your kin a better chance of survivial. Pointing at a possible, underlining social drive.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
What would be an example of greed is if one were to succeed in this way by cheating or acting unfairly towards others, by acting outside the bounds of society's laws and the courtesy of other people, while showing absolutely no consideration to having acted in this way at all to succeed. But we do not perceive this as a "bad" thing unless it is first impressed upon us at a young age.

An example of this would be a parent taking their 3-year-old into someone else's home. When a young child such as this comes accross something they want, they will take it. The parent has to take the item away from the child and get the message accross to them that taking whatever they want is wrong. We are taught at a very young age to control ourselves because this is how we will survive in a social group of standards and laws.

Animals such as wolves also learn this with their pack structure. But just as these animals, human beings too are known to operate on their own without a social group or pack. This is where in nature, greed is a useful trait to have. Absolute, selfish disregard is how any animal survives outside of its pack, herd or social group.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Interesting. I can relate. But have you thought, how society affects us in other ways. The duel affect of laws. How the rich, can seem to do what they like. The poor being sent to prison. For example, When 'Robbie Williams', talks about his drug habit. Seems to play the bad boy. This is accepted as 'good olde robbie'. But when Joe Average, does drugs. 3-5 years for him. etc...

Dec 14, 2003, 05:35 pm	#9 (permalink) (top)
darwinist Igneous Magma Location: Netherlands Posts: 200	white rice </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by I don't remember anything when I was 2 or before. Doesn't mean I didn't learn anything, but I think increased receptivity in behavior expands years beyond that. I don't think orphan infants have their fates sealed before they meet their adoptive parents.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Me neither. That is why i mentioned the subconscious. For it is a fact, that we did learn somethings during this time. Learning to talk and walk are the two best examples that come to mind. The reason i mentioned the subconscious. Is that in some circles. It is thought, to be an indirect memory 'device'. It also been mentioned, that the subconscious protects us. I did not mean to imply, that anyone's fate where sealed. Only that by the time we become 'teenages'. That most of society has done a good job, of moulding our thoughts, personality and actions. Due to the environment, each and everyone of us has been brought up in. Each environment unique, due to our parents. How they have been moulded. etc... But even as you get older. You fate, i believe is never truely sealed. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by Greed in its purest form is attaining a need or want at the expense of everything else. That would be counterproductive in a social species that most often requires cooperation to survive. It's been shown tha<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Thanks for the link. I going to check it out. I believe, that to understand who we truely are. You must understand, where you have come from. Waychel </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by I was not claiming that human behavior is genetic entirely, if this is what you interpreted me as saying. My point was that as children, we are raised due to society's standards to either turn away entirely from our worst perceived primitive traits or learn to control them.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> I did not mean to imply that you where claiming this. The reason i posted this. Is that Wilson is the most famous person that believes in Sociobiology. This is the whole aspect of the 4 drives mentioned. As i am not totally convinced that 'greed' is a basic trait. That it is more a bye product of these drives. So i posted this quote. As a sort of fail safe. Let us assume, for the moment. That 'greed' is a basic trait. Even Wilson says, that the basic drive is only 10% of our responsible actions. Our environment is responsible for 90%. Our environment being an Capitalist Represenative Society. Which promotes 'greed' as the best means of survivial. When humans are 'fighting' for survivial, they become self involed. Selfish and greedy creatures. Also this takes on a more ominous state of affairs. If we are 'fighting' for our survivial. Then we are not thinking about 'our' situation. In simple terms, this means. If we are 'fighting' each other. We can not group together, to fight the system. Have you noticed, how western society. Has become more 'selfish' and 'apathetic'. During the last 30 years. The system 'crushing' any rebellion. The 'rockers', 'mods', 'hippies' and 'punks'. All gone. Corrupting all those, who come into power. By working for the system. You become the system. ( Now i have wander off topic, by a mile... :) ) </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by Greed is, in my opinion, just another word for absolute self-concern in relation to our most primitive drive of self-preservation. To succeed in one's environment socially and economically is to survive, and competitiveness is an aspect of this. Greed however, is another thing entirely.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> I think 'greed' is an excessive desire for something. That why i think it is a bye product of the survivial instict. For example, if threaten by a 'food shortage'. One might become 'greedy', horde all the food. Fight anyone for the food. In order to survive. But then you also have to consider the following:- </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by A peculiar omission from the sociobiologists’ subdivisions of human nature is the faculty of reason itself. Stephen Jay Gould indirectly drew attention to this in his criticism of a claim that Eskimo behavior sometimes validates altruist genes. When food is scarce and an Eskimo family must move, grandparents sometimes stay behind to die rather than slow down the entire family. Here, genes are redundant, Gould points out. Old Eskimos can simply figure it out for themselves, and may be given an incentive to stay behind in families where “sacrifice is celebrated in song and story; aged grandparents who stay behind become the greatest heroes of the clan.” Once reason is admitted as a characteristic of human nature—and in truth it is the characteristic, along with freedom of the will—it can be shown to do the work imputed to phantom genes in almost any example that sociobiologists want to bring up.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> The greater sacrifice. Flying in the face of 'greed' and the 'survivial instict'. Sacrifice yourself, for your gene's being passed on. Giving your kin a better chance of survivial. Pointing at a possible, underlining social drive. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by What would be an example of greed is if one were to succeed in this way by cheating or acting unfairly towards others, by acting outside the bounds of society's laws and the courtesy of other people, while showing absolutely no consideration to having acted in this way at all to succeed. But we do not perceive this as a "bad" thing unless it is first impressed upon us at a young age. An example of this would be a parent taking their 3-year-old into someone else's home. When a young child such as this comes accross something they want, they will take it. The parent has to take the item away from the child and get the message accross to them that taking whatever they want is wrong. We are taught at a very young age to control ourselves because this is how we will survive in a social group of standards and laws. Animals such as wolves also learn this with their pack structure. But just as these animals, human beings too are known to operate on their own without a social group or pack. This is where in nature, greed is a useful trait to have. Absolute, selfish disregard is how any animal survives outside of its pack, herd or social group.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Interesting. I can relate. But have you thought, how society affects us in other ways. The duel affect of laws. How the rich, can seem to do what they like. The poor being sent to prison. For example, When 'Robbie Williams', talks about his drug habit. Seems to play the bad boy. This is accepted as 'good olde robbie'. But when Joe Average, does drugs. 3-5 years for him. etc... What goes 'up', must come 'down', unless it goes around and round.