[inri]

Quote by: Elminister It is more than a mere choice, like that of deciding which movie to see at the theater, that is being made. I'm explaining a behaviour that is guided by a very strong, deep rooted reflexive desire to eat and enjoy meat. In fact it has been a driving force within man for far longer than you can provide support for the longevity of the qualities you bring to this debate table. In how you are applying them. I could suppress it, perhaps. I quit smoking after 16 years using the 'cold turky' method. I know all too well the lengths of which people would have to go to,to beat back extreme cravings. But why should I? Because I can identify with another sentient things dealings with pain? Because I can assume it has the same vested interest to live as I do?

And yet....clearly 'some' humans exist that seem to have somehow been able to 'rise above' these urges. My argument is: these individuals are mentally/emotionall superior to those who have not. They are operating at a higher level of development than those humans who react and give-in to urges..who completely disregard any small amount of empathy they may actually be feeling.

To give your perspective its full merit lets say that over time society has evovled empathetically to the point in which meat and animal products are no longer utilized. With the vast numbers of commodity animals gone through a gradual decreasing in the numbers due to the decreasing demand by the evolving society what would you propose be done with the final remaining bloodlines of these domesticated animals?

I'd assume that the breeding of these animals would decrease as the need for their meat decreased. Once again...I can't imagine this occurring in any way but a very gradual process. Will there ever be a day where the entire world will suddenly declare..."Hey, every single one of us is a vegan as of yesterday, what should we do with all the animals we bred last year"....I kind of doubt it will go down like that.

What of the populations of wild animals? With people no longer willing to hunt and eat them or havrest them for other reasons their population growths would be totally unfettered and would most assuredly pose a myriad of negative impacts to man as the populations increase.As is currently indicated now with the number of those who hunt to eat or otherwise harvest them decreases.

The idea that hunters are solely responsible for keeping wildlife numbers in check is one that is debatable. Many believe that nature takes care of itself just fine, independent of man's interventions. This really opens up a whole new topic of debate.

Can you not see that at its fullest potential your point of veiw here is doomed to failure and hypocritical actions?

Please keep in mind, that no where here have I stated that I believe ALL people (or even 'some' of them) 'should' aspire to veganism.

Being that veganism is growing, as you stated, the trend points to what I said above as a probability. It is your posistion that life not be taken wantonly so your posistion itself seeks this very end of its means.

What I've stated is that those who deem it okay to take life wantonly, are operating at a lower level mentally/emotionally speaking....ie; they are less developed human beings than their counterparts who are capable of seeing suffering, feeling empathy for it, and adjusting their behavior as a consequence.

Now here is where you say,again, that your not implying that everybody become a vegan, but the fundamental points in your posistion say exactly that. I suggest you stop running in circles and face the fact that your argument is doomed to fail to stay within its own creed.

My argument is NOT that everybody should become a vegan. In my version of utopia..sure, ALL humans would act with complete kindness and intergral action. The fact is though that this is simply not presently the case...and merely wishing for this is not going to make it happen. Many humans presently appear to be lacking the emotional development to make this even a remote possibility.

If I were to imply that everyone should become a vegan, I'd be in extreme denial over this very basic fact.

A predator is more than just a "mere" cog in the natural scheme of things. It is a necessity. That's a fact that cannot be undone.

In the animal kingdom, amongst many species, this appears to be true. Can you provide evidence that this is a 'necessity' where human are invovled? Seems to me, many are doing just fine without this 'cog' playing a part in their life and existence.
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I could use every one of these points to describe personal traits I have displayed throughout my own life. How could that be if I choose to eat meat too?

Sure... 'most' humans have 'some' amount of empathic ability. Clearly, if your empathic ability and integrity was in the higher levels though, you'd see suffering when and where it does exist and you'd be capable of overriding your 'urges' to choose behavior consistent with your empathic resonse. This is what most highly emotionally developed humans do.

Ok. Your saying not all humans currently have this ability. What an astute observation, really. So the point your making is that some people choose not to consume animals or animal products due to moral reasons. Just where was I arguing that point? I said humans possess a deep rooted reflexive urge, much like empathy, to consume meat. My urge is just as subjective as the empathy you bring up. I have never said it wasent subjective. It does, however, as a reflexive urge combat the empathy you bring up. You have agreed to that fact. So my stance in showing the longevity of the basis for my reflexive urge is entirely relative.

When empathic feelings and ability to take integral action prevail over animalistic urges...a human is demonstrating higher levels of mental/emotional development...there in a nutshell is my argument.

I'm sorry. I cannot see "working in tandem by design" at all. That smacks of some sort of supernatural force and not circumstance that actually is what places scientific and moral evolution on congruent lines.

To some degree, BOTH of these traits exist in each of us...nothing supernatural about that.

I assert that EVERYBODY possess a level of empathy. It's just alloted in different ways.

Exactly...and Those who possess very high levels, coupled with ability for integral action are often those who are capable of becoming vegans..... selflessly putting their immediate needs aside to contribute to the well-being of other people and animals alike.

Even a psychopath is driven by an urge or desire to fufill a need. It's the extened values that a person doles out that are given to anything which after this, these values are drawn opon to constitute/create feelings that motivate them. Somebody could have empathy for something that doesn't even physically exist.

Most of us humans do 'value' kindness over cruelty. Sure, someone 'could' have empathy for something that doesn't exist....animals though, clearly 'do' exist and clearly 'do' demonstrate a will to live and an ability to suffer.

Ehh, I seem to get that sometimes. I'm actually thinking a few sentences ahead of what I'm typing. Sometimes that does not work quite as well as desired.

No worries.....I've gone back over some of mine that even I can't understand!...lol...the heat of the moment, I guess!

I am not advocating cruelty* to animals.

But...isn't subjecting animals to confinement, fear, pain and death cruel? ....if you don't believe it is cruel, certainly you must admit that it does not fall under the heading of 'kind'?

In my world humans a driven by instinctualy and emotionaly driven relfexive thoughts, coupled with logic. Just like your world.

Make no mistake...we live in the same world. I simply acknowledge that those who are able to overcome their instincts and urges in order to serve their higher human mental/emotional abilities, are of higher a development.

You cannot disassociate man with what it is that he is.

do you consider those who have no urges or reflexive needs for meat..or who have overcome them...those who are ruled by the higher attributes of mental/emotional urging, to still be human?

Is a man who gives in to animalistic urges to rape or thieve more or less emotionally developed than a man who either does not have these urges, or has the ability to overcome them? I'd say he is of a lower development than the man who possesses higher abilities in this area....likewise with the man who can overcome his urges to eat meat in order to consider the animal involved and act accordingly.