[orgaelin]

Originally posted by PatrickHenry, The genealogies in Matthew and Luke differ markedly. One must be Joseph's no doubt, but what of the other? My conclusion and that of other traditional Bible scholars is that it is Mary's ancestry, her father being Joseph's father-in-law. Thus the reference to Joseph in both lines of descent.

To be honest, I've not heard that one. I'll check it out and get back to you. As for the rest....

In any case the virgin birth of Jesus is prophesied in the Jewish Scripture.

Oh no it's not!

Let's explore the story. The prophet Isaiah, in 735BC, when Jerusalem was under threat from Syria, proclaimed to the troubled King Ahaz, "Hear ye now, O house of David... Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel' (Isaiah 7:13-14)

This is the Jewish scripture that supposedly prophecies Jesus' birth, 700 years later. Consider the situation: Ahaz's Jerusalem is under threat from Syria, and they are in imminent danger, needing some help. Then a prophet tells him not to worry because, *700* years later, there will be a child born of a virgin.

What good would that have been to Ahaz?!

This is just like horoscopes. They give you highly ambiguous predictions so they can later be flexibly applied to variable situations. People have a natural tendency to be selective, which is why most people seem unphased by the fact that Isaiah never actually mentioned Jesus' name, but gave an entirely different name!

The names meanings:

Immanuel = Hebrew, Immanu-El = 'With us [is] God'
Jesus = Hebrew, Yehoshua = 'Jehovah saves'

Not even the meanings are the same!

Many disbelievers in miracles, like you, have sought to render Jesus' life and ministry mundane and explainable by natural means.

And why? Because what was once a set of ideas that people were readily able to accept is now a set of ideas that alienate people who are even basically scientifically literate. Times have changed. People still want to believe in something wonderful, but the line has moved. Walking on water is too much for many people. They would still worship God willingly and as fully without the miracles, but the miracles put them off.

Even your previous reference to the theft of the body by the disciples was propagated by the Jewish authorities of the First Century.

Hang on, don't put words in my mouth! No-one believes that story, and I certainly never suggested it at all.

I simply stated that Jesus, together with his buddies, faked his own death.

I will elaborate on this, but it's one of those 'give me time' things, as it's a damned long story! I know no-one stole his body!

But if the Disciples of Jesus were in on a conspiracy, why would they all have died martyr's deaths rather than renounce what they would have presumably known to be a lie?

I'm sorry, you've lost me. What disciples were martyred?

~ Org.