[loser]

Granted, there are exceptions (including you, I take it) who's need is to reconcile scripture with scientific fact.

I'm almost like that except my goal is to see that science is reconciled with scriptural fact. When science is founded in truth (like scripture), it will advance quickly and assuredly. When based on myth (like common descent), it stagnates and advances slowly, if at all.

I used to be the moderator of the Evolution/Creationism debate board at Beliefnet, during which time I encountered plenty of theists who demonstrated little or no knowledge of what modern evolution theory actually says. Here I have to disagree with GeminiBrian's accusation, because there are plenty of theists who support modern evolution theory.

What does modern evolution theory actually say? Does it say "common descent"? Is that what you believe?

Thankfully, there is a growing chorus of Christians who either reject creationism as it is commonly understood, or who deny that creationism is a necessity of the Christian faith. I happen to be a member of that chorus, which is somewhat amazing since I used to be a young-earth creationist. I did an 180-degree turn in my thinking after pursuing a scholastic study of modern evolution theory, which included reading the literary works of actual scientists.

How long before your INDOCTRINATION (into modern evolution theory) was complete? What makes them "actual" scientists and why were they able to deceive you? BTW, the earth doesn't have to be young in order for the creation story in Genesis to be true.

Goyboy: I read your 'essay' entitled "Creationism on Trial" (link in Goyboy post #21) and while I was impressed with its progression, style, and readability, I was dismayed to find that you make quite a few false assumptions. If you build upon incorrect premises, the whole logical progression falls apart.

Some of the erroneous contentions are:

1) "On one side of the debate are people who say that the creation account in Genesis should be interpreted figuratively. On the other side are people who claim that every verse of Genesis must be interpreted literally."

A: What about those who stand in the middle between both of those extremes? Any TRUE creationist/Christian KNOWS that the Bible is a combination of both literal and figurative language. It is for this reason that pure logic cannot make sense of the Bible. Without spiritual guidance (giving the recipient the key to understand), it will just seem like foolishness. Being able to know what to take literally and what to take figuratively is the key to understanding scripture.

2) "The answer to this question lies in the identity of Jesus. In Christian theology Jesus is God the Son. Because Jesus is God, the spiritual lessons of his parables are truth. Yet, God the Son delivered such truth by telling stories that are fictitious."

A: Jesus is NOT God, the Trinity is a false teaching. True Christians know this. Still, even so, Jesus the Man was not a liar...He was filled with God's holy Spirit.

3) "According to creationist thinking, God would not have chosen to work through a natural evolutionary process."

A: Fallacy. Not ALL creationists think alike. The problem is not in evolution; the problem is in some people's interpretations/conclusions.

4) "According to creationist theology God chose to make the Earth out of nothing."

A: I never got that. My understanding was always that "without form and void" meant sterile (void of life) and unshaped (a big smooth ball of water with no dry land), just as described.

5) "When the Apostle Peter mentions the creation of the Earth, he says that the Earth was "formed out of water and by water."(2 Peter 3:5) Water is not "nothing" either.

This information suggests that creationist theology may be in error."

A: This verse is often misunderstood. In the beginning, the earth was perfectly smooth and stood about a mile deep in water, In whatever method, God shaped the earth (pushed mountains up and valleys down) so that dry land appeared. Later, this was reversed and, once again, the earth was submerged in water. After that, dry land appeared for the second time. This is what Peter is referring to and, of course, the fact that life is composed mostly of water.

A LOT of theology (as well as science) is in error, that's for sure.

6. "Along with Genesis 1:2, Genesis 1:27 is also a problem for creationist theology. The verse says, So God created man in his own image. According to a strict literal interpretation of the verse, at the time of creation God had a body consisting of all the parts of a human body.

According to Christian theology God has not a body (Henry, 1991, p. 6) Jesus said, God is spirit.(John 4:24) For this reason creationists do not interpret Genesis 1:27 literally.

A question needs asking. If creationists insist that every verse of Genesis be interpreted literally, then why don't they interpret Genesis 1:27 literally?

A: Your body in a mirror is not the same as your real body but it is an image of your body. Just because God is spirit does not mean that he cannot have a form that is reflected in the physical. Still, how was man created in God's 'likeness'? Is it necessarily the body or could He be referring to intelligence?

It would be foolish to presuppose anything concerning God's body from this rather vague remark. One would need to consider all of scripture in order to come to some kind of conclusion as to what God looks like.

7) "Creationists admit that the empirical data conflicts with creationist theology. So how do creationists explain the conflict? In general, creationists say that God intentionally created Nature to give false empirical data. In other words, creationists are saying that God created Nature to lie."

A: Once again, I disagree with this assumption. Science does not disagree with scripture...it confirms its validity! What is wrong is man's deceived ideas and concepts of what science and the Bible really say.

All in all, however, a nice read. I admit that the majority of ALL people, atheists and theists alike, do not have a clue as to our origins and the nature of God.