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MindKata · Jul 23, 2008, 08:16 am

I fully accept very high energy subatomic particles do occur in nature (although their frequency of occurrence isn't very high, (by high I mean we don't seen billions of very high energy particles per square micrometre every nano second, but the occasional few definitely do occur, however they are lone particles).

However, we will have high concentrations of high energy particles in the LHC *in a very small space*

I am going to play devils advocate for a moment, but in the interests of scientific debate, (of which critical evaluation is a vital part), we need to consider what is possible within the LHC.

One thing I'm very interested about is the kinds of group particles collision interactions that are possible.

For example, imagine two cars driving head on into each other while both are travelling at say 100 Mph ... and you get to see the collision in slow motion video from a side on (say 10 metres away) perspective. Now imagine watching the video as the two cars first start to crush and crumple up into each other, as they get squashed together and torn apart by the collision. Now imagine as these two cars are mostly though the process of crushing together and getting torn apart, that a 3rd car then slams into the back of one of the cars. (Or another two car collision occurs at the side of them and their debris is spraying into each other debris).

If this was a particle accelerator and the cars were particles, then the detectors would most likely pick-up an interesting (but less frequently occurring) collision.

The frequency of this kind of group interaction is less than simpler two particle collisions, however its not impossible. So you end up with showers of debris and occasionally we my see something very interesting in the debris. That "something very interesting" event could be caused by these kinds of rarely occurring types of group collisions. And don't forget that the extra (3rd or more) "cars" don't need to hit the first two "cars" ... their debris can hit other debris etc..

So what if something dangerous was formed in one of these rare showers of group collisions?

Also the whole point of particle accelerators is the beams are designed to focus into a small an area as possible, to maximise the chances of collisions. That works for single collisions, but what about group collisions?

Also Hawking radiation is not 100% proven as fact ... its still currently a theory and holes in that theory have been already suggested.

Also the lifespan of a black hole is very likely to be dependent upon its mass, which means a group collision is very likely to exist for longer than a simple collision

A rare group collision merger only needs to exist long enough for it to impact onto some solid part of the machine, for us to be in a potentially very dangerous situation. We are then left hoping that as it impacts, it cannot merge with any else. But if it can merge, then we have the risk of a self-sustaining reaction of continuing mergers, regardless of even if Hawking radiation is proven correct.

Group collision mergers have not been considered for the LHC and we cannot predict with 100% safety all possible interactions.

A particle accelerator is in some ways a blunt instrument when it comes to controlling the exact interactions. We cannot prevent group collision mergers and at ever greater energies, group collision mergers are likely to become more common and more varied.

Jul 23, 2008, 08:16 am	#19 (permalink)
MindKata Sedimentary Rock Posts: 7	Playing devils advocate for the moment... I fully accept very high energy subatomic particles do occur in nature (although their frequency of occurrence isn't very high, (by high I mean we don't seen billions of very high energy particles per square micrometre every nano second, but the occasional few definitely do occur, however they are lone particles). However, we will have high concentrations of high energy particles in the LHC in a very small space I am going to play devils advocate for a moment, but in the interests of scientific debate, (of which critical evaluation is a vital part), we need to consider what is possible within the LHC. One thing I'm very interested about is the kinds of group particles collision interactions that are possible. For example, imagine two cars driving head on into each other while both are travelling at say 100 Mph ... and you get to see the collision in slow motion video from a side on (say 10 metres away) perspective. Now imagine watching the video as the two cars first start to crush and crumple up into each other, as they get squashed together and torn apart by the collision. Now imagine as these two cars are mostly though the process of crushing together and getting torn apart, that a 3rd car then slams into the back of one of the cars. (Or another two car collision occurs at the side of them and their debris is spraying into each other debris). If this was a particle accelerator and the cars were particles, then the detectors would most likely pick-up an interesting (but less frequently occurring) collision. The frequency of this kind of group interaction is less than simpler two particle collisions, however its not impossible. So you end up with showers of debris and occasionally we my see something very interesting in the debris. That "something very interesting" event could be caused by these kinds of rarely occurring types of group collisions. And don't forget that the extra (3rd or more) "cars" don't need to hit the first two "cars" ... their debris can hit other debris etc.. So what if something dangerous was formed in one of these rare showers of group collisions? Also the whole point of particle accelerators is the beams are designed to focus into a small an area as possible, to maximise the chances of collisions. That works for single collisions, but what about group collisions? Also Hawking radiation is not 100% proven as fact ... its still currently a theory and holes in that theory have been already suggested. Also the lifespan of a black hole is very likely to be dependent upon its mass, which means a group collision is very likely to exist for longer than a simple collision A rare group collision merger only needs to exist long enough for it to impact onto some solid part of the machine, for us to be in a potentially very dangerous situation. We are then left hoping that as it impacts, it cannot merge with any else. But if it can merge, then we have the risk of a self-sustaining reaction of continuing mergers, regardless of even if Hawking radiation is proven correct. Group collision mergers have not been considered for the LHC and we cannot predict with 100% safety all possible interactions. A particle accelerator is in some ways a blunt instrument when it comes to controlling the exact interactions. We cannot prevent group collision mergers and at ever greater energies, group collision mergers are likely to become more common and more varied.