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Old Apr 17, 2008, 10:19 am   #63 (permalink) (top)
Chris the Chees
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But your placing all these others on the same level of importance and influence in world history as Hitler, when they obviously aren't.
Really? Prove it.

Without the rail workers in Germany who actively shipped Jews to the death camps the holocaust could not have happened. Without the SS the holocaust could not have occurred. Hitler's role in the Holocaust is but one part, he didn't organise the holocaust, he didn't implement the holocaust single-handedly and individually he didn't kill any Jews. Indeed there is not one document where Hitler puts his name on an order to kill Jews, not one.

Hitler's element of responsibility comes in to it because it was his regime, but to claim that he shaped the regime single-handed, and is individually responsible for it is manifestly false. It simply cannot be true.

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After Jesus Christ, he is the second most discussed individual in the world, doesn't that tell you something?
Argumentum ad populum. Your argument is a fallacy.

Most of the people discussing Hitler have no idea what they are talking about. They haven't read the better historians, and they have no idea about the individualist/structuralist debate that exists among historians.

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Yeah of course he couldn't have got anywhere without all those other guys to help, but he was the focus that bought them all together to make the Nazi party what it became.
But by the same token, while he may have been a focal point both ideologically and as a personality, he still is just a cog in a wider mechanism. Other of the parts may seem less integral, but still without them there is no machine, which means that other parts are just as integral, which proves the structuralist position to be true.

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thats why he was the leader.
Non sequitur; remember the age old expression, 'the power behind the throne'? While not going as far as Mommsen in describing Hitler as a ‘weak dictator’, the argument is a solid one. Hitler hated doing any work; he got up in the afternoon, attended a couple of meetings a day for a few hours and then spent the rest of the day, and much of the night watching movies. As a result he left the bulk of the work to his power hungry lieutenants. This gave them an inordinate amount of power and influence in the regimes decision making process, which placed Hitler in stark contrast to Stalin.

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I doubt they were willing, in the lead up to WW2 the Nazi party had the streets under their control, and if anyone objected to them they were just beaten up or killed.
The myth of the Gestapo having ears at every door has been utterly debunked.

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Sorry, but you wouldn't have had WW2 without him.
The same goes for a vast army of other individuals. A. J. P. Taylor argued that Hitler provided a role, in terms of reaction to the 1919 treaty, which is exactly what any other German leader would have done.

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My paragraphs and grammar, are also better than yours.
You have made grammatical errors in just about every post of yours I have read. So even if you grammar is better than mine, it is still far from perfect; indeed the exact opposite is true, so it is highly hypocritical of you to criticise my stylistic faults while you maintain plenty of your own. It is also worth noting that picking up spelling errors is the refuge of those who lack actual arguments.


Society may be formed so as to exist without crime, without poverty, […] no obstacle whatsoever intervenes at this moment except ignorance to prevent such a state of society.

Robert Owen
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