[freefallife]

Quote by: Winter wind This seems to be the crux of our arguments, so I'll start with this. I do think that there is evil we can't overcome with what we have now. But I think, over time, we will be able to eliminate our current evils. There is always a time during a puzzle where it is impossible to instantly undo it. After a while of poking and prodding, the answer becomes clearer and obtainable. All evil can be overcome if given time.

So, then is it your opinion that we will one day be able to control the weather and prevent earthquakes?

My response is growth as a human race means human race as a whole could overcome such a problem.

Which still doesn't change the fact that growth could easily be facilitated without suffering. It is a teaching method that is malicious at best. When is killing a good teaching method?

Plus, being Christian, I believe that death is not the end. The man falling from the roof of a building would be able to get what he deserves in the next life. That is what overcomes death.

Death isn't the problem. Its the ways in which we die...the pain involved that is the problem.

You can't be sure it wasn't excessive. You will have a difficult time proving that as my argument will simply be "only God knows for sure what was excessive and what wasn't"

I know it's excessive, you know its excessive. I'm sure there are countless others in the world that feel as such. If this god hears the prayers of the world, he knows its excessive.

We've covered this argument. Growth is the purpose. To rise above the problem.

And you have to justify the use of violence to facilitate that growth. I watch my child grow both physicly and mentally with no need for pain and suffering. It happens on a daily basis. Why use torture to allow us to grow? It is not consistant with a god that loves us unconditionaly.

We call it "opening our heart to Him", but night class was close enough. Oh, and to avoid infringing on free will, the classes aren't mandatory, but they help.

There you go. Now you're getting it.

He's invisible to sight. Christians believe that opening your heart makes him visible, but I think it makes no difference. If he was visible, it would be too easy. As stupid as that sounds, imagine God was the obvious right choice. Taking his side is now unimpressive. It's the normal thing to do, not extraordinary. It almost eliminates free will. (this argument is tentative as I have jet lag and may have screwed up. I apologize in advance for any illogical statements.)

Being visible would be to easy? Then why did he do it before? He walked and spoke directly to Adam and Eve. He gave detailed instructions to Noah for his ark. He appeared before and spoke to Abram. He appeared and spoke with Abraham and his wife Sarai (in fact directly instructing him to rename her Sarah) and gave them the good news of her bearing a son in the near future. He spoke in person with Rebekah, the wife of Isaac. He appears before Isaac to tell him where to live. Abimelech actually witnesses the lord with Isaac. He spoke directly to Moses throughout the exodus. He spoke to Aaron and tells him to meet Moses in the desert.

So, by your argument, god USED to make it too easy for us. That back then, when god was apparently walking around all the time, it was "too easy". Right, so somewhere along the line he decided that he should remain hidden from us all, never to appear again and torture us from afar hoping that we "get it". Rediculous.

As for torturing us...First off, you make it sound like there is only evil in the world and nothing else.

Imagine the universe for a moment. We live on an insignificant speck of rock orbiting an unimpressive star in a galaxy among billions. Out of all we've been able to determine, Earth is the only hospitable place in the universe. The rest of the universe is a violent malstrom in which we can never survive. In as much as the universe is concerned, there is almost infiately more evil than good.

Second, torturing would mean we can't get out of the torture. It's a challenge (tough love) if we can overcome the problem.

Who ever said you couldn't get out of torture. Perhaps you should speak to a Vietnam POW survivor sometime.

Without viruses, your argument would change to "what about people born without helpful parasites? That's evil".

Depends on the level of suffering involved. If a person was born without the "helpful" bacteria in their digestive systen that did not allow the proper absorbsion of nutriens and that person had to undergo medical treatment for life, yes, I would call that evil and question why god had allowed this person to be born at a disadvantage.

Heck, why not...

We were created in god's image. Are you saying that god is a big ape?

It would be illogical. Create an imbalance. Evolution is neutral in nature. It's just a change in genetics. The improvements survive and the deficiencies will have less genetic fitness. To only have improvements would be illogical. Now if you say God could make it logical, then we go beyond the realm of logic and the point becomes impossible to debate.

I'm still trying to see how harmfull genetic defects are a requirement for evolution to suceed. Secondly, you should start a thread on your viewpoint of how evolution and thology don't clash. We were created as is according to the bible, in gods image.

I personally think you have an excessively cynical view of the world.

Not necessarily cynical. I'd call it realistic. And its not just the world, but the universe in general. As I stated, it is a very violent place.

Anywho, why was this system chosen? Probably because it is the perfect balance. The rules of this universe generally boil down to everything must be even and equal in the end.

Yet you agree that good and evil are NOT in ballance. You're saying that someday they will be?

This is related because you say the world is getting worse and I say it's getting better. This is importent because my argument is that humans will grow to live in an increasingly better world and evil shall become lesser and lesser. You say it's getting worse, therefore debunking my hypothesis. It is highly relevant.

The world is heading inexorably to total destruction. Take your pick of ELE catastrophies. Even if we don't blow ourselves up through nuclear war, the sun is going to melt the planet in about 5 billion years, or we're going to get struck by a meteor the size of Manhattan. If the end result is the complete destruction of our species, I would argue that we are heading into a MORE evil future.

The world is not worse then it was 1000 years ago (for instance.) In fact, it is better.

In some ways, this is true. In far more disasterous ways it isn't. We weren't so self destructive 1000 years ago. By that I mean the impact our species has on this planet. 70% of biologists view the present era as part of a mass extinction event, possibly one of the fastest ever, according to a 1998 survey by the American Museum of Natural History. This is due mostly to the outstanding job we as a species are doing destroying the biosphere. some researchers estimate that it could cause the extinction of almost half of all species in the next 100 years. We're killing ourselves, we're killing this planet, and you want to say "it's not all bad". Sure. At least there's love in the world. Too bad there's no god.

Doing so would collapse the laws of physics and who knows what would have had to change to accommodate this change in the properties of friction.

Its not the properties of friction that I was suggesting to be changes. How bout some grease??

Or geologically, maybe the shifting plates needed that friction to create landmasses.

Indeed. And this happens at a constant rate every day. Mt Everest grows about 3 in. a year. The problem is when the plates get stuck. There's no reason for god to have created a system that gets stuck and then kills 200,000 people when it works for the most part just fine without quakes that are felt on a daily basis.

Or the possibility remains that earthquakes are just another challenge to over come.

first, there is no overcoming earthquakes. And I think I've already covered the whole "challenge" thing.

To why we need to cure cancer...I personally believe that curing cancer opens the door to cell life manipulation leading to a cure for death (maybe).

A cure for death?? Wait, I thought you wnated to go to heaven? Nothin last forever, my friend. Death comes for us all.

Second off, maybe (big maybe) the reason why so many people are dying from this is because of the same rules set in place about genetic mutation. You need them for evolution, but they have this unavoidable side effect.

Again, I'd like to see that thread on evolution being gods creation.

Well the analogy fails because the father knows whats going to happen.

EXACTLY!!! He KNOWS we are going to suffer immense pain and he does it anyway!!

And your example is extreme to say the least.

I don't think so. God knows we are going to suffer. I know my daughter will suffer. God hopes we will overcome the pain somehow. I hope my 3 year old figures a way out of that room.