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Geoff332 · Nov 6, 2003, 06:40 pm

Rebel,

In the scenario I described, there were several things missing from describing it as discrimination.

1. There was no sense of even awareness of the white business man to the black person's business idea.
2. The business man was not employing anyone, therefore there were no disciminatory hiring practices. It is more likely that the new business owner would be employing the businessman, and the black person would not be a candidate for that job.
3. There was no sense of any contractual relationship, meaning that there was no demonstrable relationship that could be shown to be discriminatory.
4. There was no mention of any employees. Most business ideas don't have anyone employed, particularly when you are developing a business plan or proof of concept.

The networks that support people with new business ideas are a combination of formal and informal relationships, based on both professional and personal connections. When we are dealing with informal relationships and personal connections, many of the people involved are giving their time freely and without charge. At an institutional level, it is be discimination when the formal opportunities are limited by your race. The Government can and should address these directly by legislating against racism. When it is a lack of personal connections, how can you legislate how a person voluntarily spends their time? I'm not denying this is a problem (in fact I am arguing that this is one of the biggest problems). I am arguing that this is not entirely racism or discrimination, nor is it going to be solved by anything as straightforward as education and legislative definitions of discrimination. If I am right (which you haven't really suggested I'm not), then part of the solution will involve methods for making informal contacts and relationships more available to population groups that are currently disadvantaged in that respect.

All of this is actually quite secondary. I have never denied racism and discrimination as a central or important issue. I listened, now it's your turn. You seem to have changed your line of reasoning. Read your first reply to my original post on this issue. It's nice and short, so I can quote part of it (with my emphasis added):</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Rebel)
I know there are FEWER businesses owned by minorities and women. But that's just a bias and discrimination thing in secondary and tertiary education.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>My reply was that it was a great deal more than bias and discrimination in education that was the causal factor. Again, I don't deny that education is a factor, but it's a long, long way from being the only factor. I started replying to you because you were attributing this entire problem to education. My counter was that it was due to other factors. I never denied that racism and discrimination are important, I merely argued that these were not always direct products of education nor that they were the only causal factors. I hope you were listening.

Nov 6, 2003, 06:40 pm	#57 (permalink) (top)
Geoff332 Igneous Magma Location: New Zealand Posts: 309	Rebel, In the scenario I described, there were several things missing from describing it as discrimination. 1. There was no sense of even awareness of the white business man to the black person's business idea. 2. The business man was not employing anyone, therefore there were no disciminatory hiring practices. It is more likely that the new business owner would be employing the businessman, and the black person would not be a candidate for that job. 3. There was no sense of any contractual relationship, meaning that there was no demonstrable relationship that could be shown to be discriminatory. 4. There was no mention of any employees. Most business ideas don't have anyone employed, particularly when you are developing a business plan or proof of concept. The networks that support people with new business ideas are a combination of formal and informal relationships, based on both professional and personal connections. When we are dealing with informal relationships and personal connections, many of the people involved are giving their time freely and without charge. At an institutional level, it is be discimination when the formal opportunities are limited by your race. The Government can and should address these directly by legislating against racism. When it is a lack of personal connections, how can you legislate how a person voluntarily spends their time? I'm not denying this is a problem (in fact I am arguing that this is one of the biggest problems). I am arguing that this is not entirely racism or discrimination, nor is it going to be solved by anything as straightforward as education and legislative definitions of discrimination. If I am right (which you haven't really suggested I'm not), then part of the solution will involve methods for making informal contacts and relationships more available to population groups that are currently disadvantaged in that respect. All of this is actually quite secondary. I have never denied racism and discrimination as a central or important issue. I listened, now it's your turn. You seem to have changed your line of reasoning. Read your first reply to my original post on this issue. It's nice and short, so I can quote part of it (with my emphasis added):</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Rebel) I know there are FEWER businesses owned by minorities and women. But that's just a bias and discrimination thing in secondary and tertiary education.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>My reply was that it was a great deal more than bias and discrimination in education that was the causal factor. Again, I don't deny that education is a factor, but it's a long, long way from being the only factor. I started replying to you because you were attributing this entire problem to education. My counter was that it was due to other factors. I never denied that racism and discrimination are important, I merely argued that these were not always direct products of education nor that they were the only causal factors. I hope you were listening.