[Sonart]

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Quote by: Osborn Now see, thats an allegation that demands proof, showing cause and effect, using logic, measuring up to the "objective standard" on a legal basis.

If you opened your eyes, the proof's all around you.

I've shown where, based on data, the United States is the most gun murderous wealthy nation on earth and, depending on which criteria you go by, the 8th to 24th most murderous, gun addled nation on earth, period.

We know for a fact that cultural media can influence the level of violence among young people...


Review of Research shows that playing violent video games can heighten aggression -- Jessica Nicoll, B.A., and Kevin M. Kieffer, Ph.D.

Violent Video Games Produce Violent Behavior -- Two studies by psychologists Craig Anderson and Karen Dill

And we know that violent video games are only the most recent addition to the cultural immersion of gun violence that generation upon generation of Americans have fed upon, that for generations parents have been complaining about the levels of sex and violence in American pop culture, based only on the suspicions of what the video game studies have now proven... that violence in popular media breeds more aggressive young people.

America came of age glorifying the mythology of the Wild West, starting with America's first contribution to world culture, Bill Cody's Wild West Show and the dime novel. Throughout the first half of the twentieth century, the Western was the staple of American film and early television, and by the standards of the American western, problems were always, always, ALWAYS solved by gunfire. By the standards of the Western, if you weren't handy with a gun, you were nuthin' but a helpless dirt farmer.

Even post-WWII, when westerns slowly updated to the war/crime dramas, the good guys always won out by out gunning the bad guys, week after week, despite the fact that any cop will tell you they could count the number of times they've drawn their weapons in their entire careers on maybe a couple of fingers.

By tradition, non-American detectives solve their crimes through wit... Sherlock Holmes, Hercule Poirot, the Queens of Crime -- Agatha Christy, Dorothy L. Sayers, Ngaio Marsh, Margery Allingham, etc.

American detectives solved theirs through tough "hard-boiled" attitudes and firearms -- Dashiell Hammett, Jonathan Latimer, Erle Stanley Gardner, Raymond Chandler, etc.

Of course, your response will be to blame the media, not guns. But the media only reflects the culture that surrounds it, and the culture that surrounds all Americans is one that revels in gun violence.

Quote by: Osborn Yes, a PR document that could be used again, in any similar situation, as could the precedent it set.

As several have pointed out, no... not against the modern U.S. military. As to your point about soldiers not firing on American citizens -- if those citizens are ARMED, as you advocate, then you bet our troops will fire. Again, the Civil War proved that.

Quote by: Osborn Seems most people are quite dissatisfied, yet there is still inaction by government to rectify it.... could it be no threat of being "replaced" by another party, another "uncorrupted" group of people?

Maybe, but not nearly to the point of armed rebellion... not anywhere near. But you and your pals go right ahead. We'll be right behind you.

Quote by: Osborn Gun owners attempting to be tolerant as long as their rights were basicly respected, in order to prevent bloodshed and needless killing maybe?? People valuing society?

These are the reasons the gun lobby hasn't challenged laws before the Supreme Court??? This is just plain silly, laws are challenged on constitutional questions every year, without violence. Please share with me when a recent Supreme Court ruling has resulted in bloodshed? Or is it just the naturally violent nature of gun owners that you somehow don't trust?

Quote by: Osborn Shall I send you a gun catalog? You can review their shipping policy if you want.

Once again, just because it's not ILLEGAL for you to own a gun, doesn't mean you have the RIGHT to.

It's not illegal to own a dog, either. That doesn't mean I have a Constitutional Right to own one.

Quote by: Osborn Not all rights are enumerated, or isn't that obvious? In fact, just to clarify that fact, to make it so obvious even the most OBLIVIOUS could see it, they wrote a SPECIFIC AMENDMENT for it. Can you guess which one? (this is a 5pt question, and if you miss it, you can't get into double jeapordy)

{{YAWN}} I told you, unlike some here, I've actually read the dang thing. That would be the 9th Amendment -- "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."

How clever of them to add this meaningless catchall. So... what rights are not enumerated? The right to ingest whatever drugs I see fit? The right to marry whomever or as many partners as I wish? To have sex with any consenting partner I wish, paid or otherwise? The right to build whatever I choose wherever I choose?

Quote by: Osborn The "B" side of the equation is the FACT that without conscent of the people, the government has no authority. So I ask you Sonart.... in order, what methods can the people "change their conscent"? List their choices for doing so please.

Well I daresay the fact that you 'disagree' doesn't change much. The American people have demonstrated their willingness to obey the laws of the land as they now exist, and no one's petitioned the government to change the standing precedent of the Supreme Court.

So kindly explain, Osborn... where is the lack of consent of the people???? Your personal disagreement??? Sorry, but Ron Paul's sentiments aside, this is still a representative democracy defined by a Constitution. If there's a lack of consent to the current law of the land, y'all have a perfectly peaceful, legal recourse to changing it. It's just that apparently no one has chosen to do so.

Beyond that, you can leave the country or start the revolution... you're call.

Quote by: Milton Bradley The problem is that the sides are so completely divided now that I can actually imagine the extreme Left, and the extreme Right firing on one another. The hatred is palpable.

I assume you're speaking for yourself.

Quote by: Osborn F Enready There were several soldiers who brought back BAR's, Thompsons, Garands, etc.

Are they legal now?

My dad, a WWII veteran, owned a 30.06 hunting rifle, a 30.30 Winchester, an M1 Carbine, a 12 gauge and 10 gauge shotgun, a .45 semi-automatic pistol, a .22 semi-automatic pistol. He had a Thompson submachine gun before I was born, but had to give that up.

Quote by: Osborn F Enready I pointed out how the development of an armed revolt wouldn't suprise me, nor would I necessarily decline participation.

Well it would surprise the hell outta me and I think such a possibility exists only in a very few fevered minds.

Quote by: Osborn F Enready There is nothing available to the military that average people can't match, except explosives

And armor... and artillery.... and air support.... and training.

Quote by: Osborn F Enready Exactly, and there are many ex-military out there just like me, and more trained than I, who would refuse to committ such madness, and join the rebellion.

Nah, not that many, I'm afraid. The vast majority would defend the U.S. government.

Quote by: Osborn F Enready That many are MORE corrupt. Point?

More like ours is "is the worst form of government, except all the others that have been tried." -- Winston Churchill.


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