[Osborn F Enready]

Tivo said: Are you saying that illegal immigrants are not workers, or not men? Either is particularly troubling.

Well, obviously you don't read and comprehend well.

American citizens who work, are working men(or women).

Illegal aliens who work, are working ILLEGAL ALIENS.

Do you deny what I said about the effect this will have on commercial drivers?

Tivo said: There is already a system in place to ensure that people who cannot vote do not.

Yea, worked really good in 2000 and 2004.....

It works as well as the "broken system" the status quo champions adore.

Tivo said: Otherwise, why do you not also oppose driver's licenses for legal immigrants who are not yet citizens and (in NY at least) convicted felons, neither of whom can vote?

Convicted felons, if they have a license, SERVED THEIR TIME.

Legal Immigrants, I have no issue with.

Don't try to shift the point, which is that I am against ILLEGAL immigrants, whatever race, nationality, political outlook or "claimed necessity" they use to break the most basic law of nations, citizenship.

Tivo said: Ah, once again, people in favor of the free market for everything else are suddenly opposed to a free market in labor.

WOAH! I have corrected myself in the past, and if you didn't notice, I will do so for you now.

I am pro-free market. (inside the U.S.)
I am anti-free trade (foreign trade)

I have nothing against a free market in labor, as long as all of those in the market ARE HELD TO THE SAME STANDARD OF LEGALITY, which obviously, illegal immigrants are not.

Nice try, but sorry.

Tivo said: How about it is protecting those workers, and millions of other workers who don't happen to have cushy jobs, by keeping prices low on goods sold in the United States...

You don't hear me bitching and crying about how high prices are, you hear me bitching about how the value of the dollar keeps dropping, and I do not shop at Wal-Mart. You have NEVER heard me praise trade with China, or trade with India, nor do I buy goods from either place unless American manufacturers have failed to produce a product of that type.

I'm NOT you're huckleberry.

Tivo said: sigh... do a five-minute google before you say things like this, will you? ATF form 4473, required for the purchase of a firearm at every licensed firearm dealer, specifically asks several questions which would disqualify illegal immigrants. In particular, questions 3, 9, 10, and 11 are directed in that area. But wait - it gets better. Question 12(d) asks "Are you a fugitive from justice?" Then, as if that weren't enough, question 12(k) comes right out and says it: "Are you an alien illegally in the United States?"

First of all, I have never had to fill one out to buy a firearm from a private sale, but I HAVE HAD to show my license. Are you saying private sales aren't put further at risk by this fake ID?

Secondly, you act as if "because there is a law on the books, it is being executed with equality and completeness", which we know is bullshit, DUE TO THE FACT IT IS ILLEGAL TO COME IN THIS NATION WITHOUT GOING THROUGH A BORDER CROSSING LEGALLY, and, well, obviously we have a lot of illegal aliens.

Thirdly, who has not lied on a questionaire?

I have as much faith in one law being executed competently, as I do the other..... NONE!

Tivo said: Well, I can't disagree with that...

Glad to see we can agree on some things.

Tivo said: As I have shown before, this is circular reasoning - that illegal aliens are bad inherently because of their illegal entry. Nothing could be more malum prohibitum than calling someone a criminal because they violate a 100% arbitrary law that governs the way in which people are allowed to cross an imaginary line. In order to show that illegal aliens are somehow undesirable and should be removed, it needs to be shown that they are harmful in some other way than merely violating the statute.

#1 They are less willing to report job violations to authorities, jeapordizing working conditions for both legal AND illegal workers.

#2 They often work for less than legal citizens, directly lowering the wages of legal citizens.

That should do for now, let me know.

Tivo said: In other words, statutes are not justification for themselves.

I know this, but you think all laws are equal?

Obviously border security is the biggest problem facing a nation who has "enemies abroad" who are not uniformed soldiers, so border porosity is a NO BRAINER for national security.

Tivo said: (note: I'm not saying people haven't shown other reasons, etc. That is a topic for another debate.)

There are plenty of reasons in this debate.