[Captain Cardio]

Quote by: Chancellor They do. Get the bad leftists and socialists that are trying to take over out of America! The children are the offspring of the parents and how they are raised is the responsibility of the parents (with influence from the extended family). It is not the government's responsibility.

Quote by: Alive I'm the least socialist or leftist person on this forums. In fact, you are the socialist! You think families should be run in communal fashion rather than by rule of liberty! I say free the children, you say keep them under government control--it's just that government in your case are the parents themselves.

I think we've stumbled across the root of the disagreement - how much of a parental role should the government be taking?

Or - which rights do we hold to be more important, the parents or their children, and at what level of importance for each?

You're fine to have your opinion about either of those, but simple statements like "They do.", "..get the leftists/socialists out of America!" or "you are the socialist!" are far too commonplace, and don't actually say anything about what the best course of action is.

By labeling stances all-inclusively as either 'right' or 'left' or 'socialist' or 'totalitarian' or whatever words we want to use, we drift away from the reality of the situation - and only attempt to associate our opponent with something bad - basically, intelligent sounding ways of saying "well if you believe that, then you're one of these people, and those people are wrong". To put that even simpler "You're just wrong - and heres my fancy worded way of saying that"

The fact of the matter is that the government is involved already with parenting in some aspects - we have social services. You can't beat your children to discipline them, you can't have them standing up in your car without a seatbelt, you have to feed your child regularly. If the government finds out you aren't obeying those and an enormity of other rules I can't cite (as I'm not a parent) - they get involved.

Minor variations in these rules do not need to take on the tag of 'socialism' or 'big brother', because those words are merely extremes that distort somebody's position.

Only a very small minority actually want the extreme in society of either socialism or totalitarianism. (maybe those arent the correct words for the extremes - but whatever, you get the point)

So the issue isn't whether we want socialism or big brother or whatever- its what level of government involvement is appropriate, preferable, practical and/or best for our society - in this specific situation?

Some of you guys are saying it's under the parents responsibility - some of you are saying that the children have rights - well ok, but we need to address why, and figure out the root philosophical difference that is behind the scenes in this debate.

(I don't mean to put words in your mouth because I could be wrong with my following interpretation - but the actual interpretation here isn't the point - it's that we should be striving for more complex and deeper interpretations if we are going to advance the discussion):

For example:

You falsely assume that the kid can't grow up and overcome his messed-up childhood!

The underlying philosophy could be;

Parents have more rights than children. (and/or) If the circumstance is bad enough, then people should have sufficient motivation to elevate themselves out of a situation their parents put them in.

Which could mean on a deeper level, that people's willpower or free will should be given alot of credit.

Somebody on the other side however, could be saying "Kids can grow up and overcome their messed-up childhood." isn't an ok stance, because children have more rights than their parents (and/or) if we are to value equality in our society, especially given the deterministic nature of our world, then we should be ensuring certain basic rights for young citizens.

You guys also seem to disagree about whether children deserve a good childhood - the discussion doesn't have to end there.

But regardless, I want to clarify again, that my interpretations are not up for scrutiny. I would merely like people to consider more in depth, an intelligent style of discussion, so we can move the tendancy more towards debate, and away from merely argument.

My apologies for having singled the two of you out - I am just trying to raise the expectations for the quality of debate at volconvo, and I would hope other people would do the same more often.