[Scribbler1]

Quote by: grandpa So a spy agency that engages in terrorist activities at home and abroad is intellectually mature? I'm certainly not THE arbiter of maturity, but I'm more mature than that.

Where did I use the word terrorist? Once again, the CIA is just a tool the government uses. Like a hammer, you can bang a nail or hit someone in the head with it. Your complaints about the CIA would be better aimed at the people who MISUSE the agency.

Oh, so it's a SMART thing to create distrust and hostility between nations (which is exactly what such behavior entails everywhere it's applied)?

No, it's NOT a smart thing, which is why your position supporting releasing ANY records is so ridiculous. If a covert group does its job right, nobody else KNOWS what they do.

First of all, you seem to assume international spying has benign purposes. Why? Where is the evidence in support of this value judgment?

You ask for evidence to support an assumption YOU think I have made? Well, first of all it is NOT benign. These activities can go two ways, either against another country or for a country to DEFEND itself against other countries. Knowing half the world has spy agencies and that a lot of them don't like us tells me your fantasy world without a CIA is not only foolish but dangerous as well. Unless you think the whole world will stop spying what you propose would open us up to a lot of grief.

First, let me note the supreme irony of your accusing me of living in a James Bond-ish fantasy world for my opposing a national spy agency.

You're right. A James Bond-ish mentality would acknowledge the existence of international spy agencies and not just the US.

Why do so many assume there are no practical reasons to simply despise state government? I am not against the state for "conspiracy theory"reasons. I haven't said our government is aided by extraterrestrial visitors given VIP status or something. I just hate hierarchical, war-mongering organizations that systematically create class division, intentionally foster ignorance and, in many ways, simply threaten human survival (this is especially true when considering the incredible risk that comes with nuclear weapons). Those are all very adult, clearly evident reasons to despise state power.

Then take your bitch to the state and not the tool they use. If you could wave your hand and make the CIA vanish tomorrow, the state you despise would still be there, wouldn't it?

With the continual growth of state power, desolation is always near--even in places and times of relevent prosperity. And, again, this isn't just some theory of mine. It's factual. You must be simply impervious to such evident truths.

No, I'm just a little hesitant to support dismantling the CIA for "feelgood" reasons. YOU are the one bringing up the state, not me. I don't like the way our government works today any more than you. I just have a better grasp of reality as to who is at fault here. The CIA is not the government. They FOLLOW policy. They don't MAKE it.

Here is why I object to your simply saying the state is "us": The state is not in my interests. It's elite functionaries and their agents do things in my name, but it is not literally me.

Of course it isn't "literally" you. "US" is exactly what it means. This government, like it or not, represents ALL of us. If we don't like what it has become it really isn't the government's fault. It is OUR fault, and as an American you are ALSO part of "our" just as you are part of "US."

In fact, even if you ardently support the state--even if you work directly for it--it will still work against you in some fashion. This too could be evident to anyone, unless they entertain bizarre views such as yours about the state simply being benign.

Too far off topic. We were discussing the CIA.

How do we fix it without seriously underming the state?

We don't NEED to fix the CIA, that's the point. We need to demand the people in charge don't use the agency for anything other than national security. If the "state" can't live with that, we just need to get rid of the people in charge. Rather than undermining anything, that would improve things immeasurably.

And, of course, you've attempted yet again to simply characterize my arguments as a "comic book viewpoint," whatever that means. You know there is no rational argument for ignorance of anything the government is doing, so you just throw around meaningless insults.

What it means is a view of the world at odds with reality.
I have already explained why certain things must be unknown to us.
During Desert Storm, some reporter asked Colin Powell where the troops were at that time. After Powell's eyes returned to normal size he explained that if he told the reporter where the troops were the ENEMY would know that too. The reporter had simply not thought through the question before he asked it. You sound like that reporter in this regard.
If we are told all the things the CIA, the military, the FBI and other organizations do, our enemies would know it too. But, unlike you, THEY would know what to do with that information.
Don't you think outfits like al-Queda would just love to know what our spy agencies are doing and where and who their agents are?

THAT is a "comic book" viewpoint. And speaking of being ignorant of things, aside from the publicized excesses by the CIA, you really don't have a clue as to what they are doing at any given time. Therefore, you don't know if they are doing GOOD things, yet you demand their activities to be publicized. The words "reckless" and "irresponsible" come to mind.