[grandpa]

Quote by: Scribbler1 Childish? For one thing, you are not the arbiter of what constitutes maturity, thankfully.

So a spy agency that engages in terrorist activities at home and abroad is intellectually mature? I'm certainly not THE arbiter of maturity, but I'm more mature than that.

Quote by: Scribbler1 Whether it's childish or not doesn't even APPLY in this context. I'm not asking for compulsory ignorance, neither am I asking to know things I am not supposed to know.

That is really odd. How is intellectual maturity completely irrelevant to the discussion? Furthermore, by saying we should remain ignorant of things "we're not supposed to know," how are you not asking for people to remain ignorant?

Quote by: Scribbler1 This country has been engaged in covert activities for a LONG time, just like MOST OTHER countries. We all know about these activities, but most of us are smart enough to also know when WE know about things the rest of the world does too and we don't WANT to let the rest of the world know what we are doing.

Oh, so it's a SMART thing to create distrust and hostility between nations (which is exactly what such behavior entails everywhere it's applied)?

Quote by: Scribbler1 It kind of defeats the purpose of spying when everybody knows you're DOING it, doesn't it?

First of all, you seem to assume international spying has benign purposes. Why? Where is the evidence in support of this value judgment?

Quote by: Scribbler1 But I'll tell you what IS childish, in the extreme. That blanket statement of "I view state power as an enemy" gives the impression you want the state to have NO power. The "state" is NOT the enemy. The state is US. The way it was created was to make it a tool for the people's benefit and not the evil James Bond-ish entity some people see it as.

First, let me note the supreme irony of your accusing me of living in a James Bond-ish fantasy world for my opposing a national spy agency.

Why do so many assume there are no practical reasons to simply despise state government? I am not against the state for "conspiracy theory"reasons. I haven't said our government is aided by extraterrestrial visitors given VIP status or something. I just hate hierarchical, war-mongering organizations that systematically create class division, intentionally foster ignorance and, in many ways, simply threaten human survival (this is especially true when considering the incredible risk that comes with nuclear weapons).
Those are all very adult, clearly evident reasons to despise state power.

With the continual growth of state power, desolation is always near--even in places and times of relevent prosperity. And, again, this isn't just some theory of mine. It's factual. You must be simply impervious to such evident truths.

Here is why I object to your simply saying the state is "us":
The state is not in my interests. It's elite functionaries and their agents do things in my name, but it is not literally me.

In fact, even if you ardently support the state--even if you work directly for it--it will still work against you in some fashion. This too could be evident to anyone, unless they entertain bizarre views such as yours about the state simply being benign.

Quote by: Scribbler1 We have allowed some parts of it to become corrupt and we must fix that. But your black and white, comic book viewpoint regarding the idea of the CIA and just what we are SUPPOSED to know (hint:not everything) is ridiculous.

How do we fix it without seriously underming the state?

And, of course, you've attempted yet again to simply characterize my arguments as a "comic book viewpoint," whatever that means. You know there is no rational argument for ignorance of anything the government is doing, so you just throw around meaningless insults.

I think it's you who must live in a fantasy world.

Grandpa h.