[shrike]

Red herring? We're talking about the definition of "self-defense." You claim that Israel's military approach to the PA is justified as "self-defense" and I countered that overreaction in the name of "self-defense" is counterproductive.

.Again there is no overreaction of course I don't deny that there were some wrong actions by the government and army. But what do you except in such long conflict there will be always mistakes. Nobody is perfect

Israeli incursions into Gaza, missile attacks on crowded apartment buildings, targeted assassinations in the streets, and bulldozing of refugee settlements throughout the Occupied Territories

Yes of course those pesky Jews should sit quite and don’t interfere as the Arabs trying to kill them. Why they wouldn’t jump into the sea that will solve all the problems .:eek:

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Have the Palestinians responded with moderation to this policy of collective punishment? Did they release the kidnapped soldier? Obviously not. The radicals are more powerful today than at any time in the history of this conflict. The military approach has failed. Only a political solution can hope to end this crisis.

The political solution failed too. Israel taking nesccacry steps to protect itself. The radicals stronger not because of the military action but because Israel showed its weakness by retreating from Gaza with no agreement its was prize for Hamas for their terrorist activities.

Two key differences: Israel didn't occupy most of Egypt, just a few towns and resorts in eastern Sinai. Israel continues to occupy the West Bank and dominate the economic life lines into and out of Gaza. Egypt wanted closer relations with the United States; the Palestinians get little from the US.

Israel doesn’t occupy anything there is no military rule over the Palestinians. Palestinians govern themselves. They elected Hamas government and cut most of the support they received from other countries. So they have interest to stop terrorist activities but the PA government seems don't care about their people.
Israel would do well to learn a lesson from the British. In Northern

Ireland, the British initiated talks DESPITE continued bombings and shootings in Britain and Northern Ireland. The talks continued anyway. The British didn't demand that all hostilities cease before they sat at the bargaining table. Such an unrealistic demand would only have the effect of ending all negotiations indefinitely. The British also recognized that not all Northern Irish supported the radicals. The talks took years and years with many setbacks, but they never surrendered to the violence

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Apples and oranges. Did IRA wanted the distraction of UK? Did they wanted to establish their capital in London. Did they want that Irish over flood Britannia?

Oh, please shrike, this isn't 1948 or even 1967/1973. Israel is far and away the strongest nation in the region; a nuclear power with the most advanced air, land, and sea forces in Middle Eastern history. The Palestinians can't rely on Arab military power today. They are isolated in squalid refugee camps. Israel is the Goliath today, and then some.

Are you deny that Arab/Muslim countries do help Palestinians military and comically .Also these Arab/Muslim countries are threat to Israel (Iran for example)So its not only Palestinians.

Israel's iron fist strategy has totally failed. When it physically occupied Gaza, the Israeli soldiers were HATED and attacked at every opportunity--with stones if nothing else.

Its not failed. Before stupid Oslo accords the first Intifada already ended and there was no violence only when we allowed the terrorist gang from Tunis to return. We showed our weakness we gave them weapons to shot us. Stupid leftists.

The "retreat" left Gaza economically and politically dependent on Israel--another form of occupation. Israel never retreated from Gaza; they just lengthened the leash a little. Shortening the leash yet again to beat the dog more often won't make the dog love its "master" more.

Israel doesn’t own to Gazans anything. They have open border with Egypt. Of course if they will not attack the block post there. So the Europeans will close it.I don't understand why my government giving to enemy civilians electricity.

What choice does Israel have? You can send in the tanks, bulldozers, and attack helicopters again and again and again and the Palestinians won't raise the white flag of surrender. What occupied people in modern world history ever succumbed to such oppression?

We should wait for more moderate administration. Hamas don't want peace they say it numurous times and negation with is giving legitimation with it. Even Europeans don't talk with Hamas ministeres why should we?