[The Decider]

Quote by: shrike What Hezbollah and Lebanon has to with anything we talked about Palestinians and their unwillingness to promote peace. I think it red herring to run from the issue.

Red herring? We're talking about the definition of "self-defense." You claim that Israel's military approach to the PA is justified as "self-defense" and I countered that overreaction in the name of "self-defense" is counterproductive. I used Lebanon II as an example, but I could just as easily have cited the innumerable Israeli incursions into Gaza, missile attacks on crowded apartment buildings, targeted assassinations in the streets, and bulldozing of refugee settlements throughout the Occupied Territories. Have the Palestinians responded with moderation to this policy of collective punishment? Did they release the kidnapped soldier? Obviously not. The radicals are more powerful today than at any time in the history of this conflict. The military approach has failed. Only a political solution can hope to end this crisis.

Quote by: shrike He changed his rhetoric drastically he came to Jerusalem before the agreement and violence generally stopped before Peace agreement. I don’t see any change in Hamas rhetoric quite the opposite.

Two key differences: Israel didn't occupy most of Egypt, just a few towns and resorts in eastern Sinai. Israel continues to occupy the West Bank and dominate the economic life lines into and out of Gaza. Egypt wanted closer relations with the United States; the Palestinians get little from the US.

Look at the enormous risk Sadat took despite the absence of actual war in 1977. He arrived in Jerusalem with only a day or so notice, surprising even the Israelis, who never thought it would happen. Sadat's trip was condemned in Egypt and throughout the Arab world. And in the end Sadat lost his life for the effort. It is totally unrealistic to expect guerrilla organizations to lay down their arms completely in the absence of a peace treaty. Occupation is itself a form of warfare.

Israel would do well to learn a lesson from the British. In Northern Ireland, the British initiated talks DESPITE continued bombings and shootings in Britain and Northern Ireland. The talks continued anyway. The British didn't demand that all hostilities cease before they sat at the bargaining table. Such an unrealistic demand would only have the effect of ending all negotiations indefinitely. The British also recognized that not all Northern Irish supported the radicals. The talks took years and years with many setbacks, but they never surrendered to the violence.

Quote by: shrike It’s nice that you talked out of the equation all the 22 Arab countries and presented Palestinians as the underdog.

Oh, please shrike, this isn't 1948 or even 1967/1973. Israel is far and away the strongest nation in the region; a nuclear power with the most advanced air, land, and sea forces in Middle Eastern history. The Palestinians can't rely on Arab military power today. They are isolated in squalid refugee camps. Israel is the Goliath today, and then some.

Quote by: shrike Of course the reasons that you mentioned important too but like I said they saw that their could not get the Sinai by force so the only option that was left is negotiations. Until Palestinians will understand that it will take a long time by retreating from Gaza we showed that Israel can succumb to violence it was a fatal mistake from our side.

Israel's iron fist strategy has totally failed. When it physically occupied Gaza, the Israeli soldiers were HATED and attacked at every opportunity--with stones if nothing else. The "retreat" left Gaza economically and politically dependent on Israel--another form of occupation. Israel never retreated from Gaza; they just lengthened the leash a little. Shortening the leash yet again to beat the dog more often won't make the dog love its "master" more.

Quote by: shrike I agree with you generally but do you really think it could be reached with current PA government it was already tried like I said before with more "moderate" Fatah and it failed miserably.

What choice does Israel have? You can send in the tanks, bulldozers, and attack helicopters again and again and again and the Palestinians won't raise the white flag of surrender. What occupied people in modern world history ever succumbed to such oppression? Did the Maccabees learn the Roman "lesson" and behave? No, they killed themselves and their families at Masada rather than live under the Roman boot. Why do you think Palestinians, or any proud people, would behave differently?