[G. Adams]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (castille,)
HUMANITY: In other words, any Communist who refuses to work will be sent to another factory? Er....in that case I won't work, since I'm at no risk of starvation.

GOVERNMENT: The fact remains that those with guns can shoot, those without can't. The militia will become the new elite slowly, perhaps in 3 decades, perhaps in a century. "Voting" is worthless....just look at the sort of leaders we get.

Hey, didn't Le Pen get voted by millions of French citizens? If Nazism wasn't a recent European occurence, Le Pen (the French Fascist) would have become the new president.

PRODUCTION: Hitler never told people to hate Jews. Europeans always hated Jews since the Inquisition.

As for your international forum, if it has no powers, then where does the order come in?


"How do you know if someone is a criminal before arming them? How do we do it today? Then we'll do it that way."

Er....you do realise the majority of gun crimes in the US is committed by "non-criminals" with guns. We don't know if somebody is likely to use a gun for violent purposes for the next 50 years of their lives....


"No, Hitler appealed to the desperate."

No, he appealed to Germany. From the upper ranks of capitalists, to the lower ranks of liberals, his appeal was universal. He appealed to Americans; only US propaganda made people hate Hitler. He appealed to France; the French surrender was due to pro-fascist leanings. He appealed to Europe - think of the numerous anti-Stalin armies formed (ironically, that Hitler stopped).



"On stealing: As everyone has everything they need, there is no benefit to stealing. You can't sell it on, who would pay for something they already have? Theres no point keeping it, you already have one of your own, or can acquire one easily enough through your work."

That is exactly where you are wrong. You suggest "everyone has everything they need". Well, how do you know? What if they don't? What if a group of people demand MORE? For example, Communists assume dried bread and water is the only thing people want. What if somebody wants a computer? Video games? Consumer goods? CAPITALIST consumer goods?

I can predict the result: The Communist Secret Police will arrest that "troublemaker", torture him, brand him as a counter-revolutionary, and shoot him. Its happened before, and history repeats itself.



Your assumptions, ultimately, are based on so many what-ifs that I could get rich if I got a penny for every "what-if". "Communism can only work if everyone is a liberal democrat, if everyone does this and does that". What if they don't?

The answer: Shoot them.


Mao did the same. He said Communism can only work if everyone is committed. What happened to those who weren't "happy"? You just have to examine the 30 million decrease in population to know the answer.....


Ultimately, the strength of capitalism lies in preserving the status quo, and thus preventing any Hitlers from taking power. Yes, maybe some suffer (ironically, corporations are making the MOST donations to Third World countries), but as we saw with Asia, living standards under capitalism are increasing every second.

30 years ago, you couldnt buy roast duck in Communist China. Today, in capitalist China, the majority of urban, and a rapidly growing portion of country folk are getting access to clean water, good food, and a high education. All without Hitler's "kill anyone who disagrees with me" campaign.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

I wish these topics were spread out, its a daunting task having to reply this length two or three times a day.

HUMANITY - I never said you would be provided for without doing any work. I would, at least when the system is up and running, support something like that though. You would get basic food, shelter and warmth requirements, but not have access to luxuries, like gyms, cinemas, big sports events etc Making life livable, but not entirely enjoyable. This would allow people who want to do spiritual retreats to survive. But why not work? You get many more benefits, and because you picked your job not because it was the only one going, but partially because you enjoy the work, or your co-workers, work is not such a bad thing.

GOVERNMENT - Everyone has guns (except criminals and the insane), so everyone can shoot. And as the militia are only a small group relative to the people they protect, if they abuse their position it could be stopped.

If you look at the political situation in France you can see how this event occured. The people were dissollusioned with the two main parties, Chiracs and Lionol Jospins. They had both been switching power between themselves since world war II. France has, unlike most other European countries, modernised and liberalised, holding back its economy, causing some stagnation and rising unemployment. You can see why they were pissed right? so they wanted to vote for someone else in protest. On the left, like the left in all countries, is fractured and split. Our determination in our parties to not simply do as our leaders tell us mean we often splinter and break away. So any votes on the left, which if you count them all up were significant, were split between too many parties. On Frances right wing, you really only have two proper parties, Chirac's centre right and Le Pen le Front Nationale. So votes that went in protest to the right were concentrated on Le Pen.

That is why there was a sudden upshoot in the FN's vote. Now France has a second ballot system, in order to ensure at least a majority vote for one candidate in the presidential elections. The top two candidates from the first round go head to head in the second. Chirac came first, Le Pen second and Jospin third, knocking him out. But in the 2nd ballot Le Pen was decimated; 82.05% for Chirac and 17.95% for Le Pen, with an abstention rate of only 19%.

And you have to remember that many people in France loath Chirac, so some refused to vote for him whatever. He is after all not just a little corrupt. But then who isnt in French politics, its always dominated by an elitist bureaucracy.

Aaaand, on top of that the French President really does not hold that much sway in french politics, the real power is in its Parliament. And in the parliamentary elections the FN performed much more poorly. It has potential, the presidency, but only in international affairs, and as France is a little marginilised, the president is a bit impotent right now.

So your conclusion that if it wasn't for fascism recent phase in Europe he would have won is wrong. The French people are much more political than Americans, British or Aussies. They have always had strong left wing parties and far right activism. Did you not see on the news the millions of French people lining the streets at Le Pen's comin second in the first round?

PRODUCTION - Europeans have not always hated the Jews since the Inquisition. Your generalisation of half a billion people on the views of some are astounding. The hights of anti-semitism among the general populace were precisley around the Inquisition, which if you don't know your timelines was a loooonnnggg time ago.

Because the Jewish people in Germany were a minority, they were easy to highlight when they did have good jobs and become wealthy, making them a target for resentment when everyone else was poor. Hitler gave them false reasons to hate the Jews, based on lies and pseudo science.

International forum - what order? it is forum for debating ideas, nothing more. The ideas presented to the people can then be taken to their own councils were it will be argued there between the councillors and any interested citizens. Any action taken as a result of the debates at the international forum will be ones ratified at the local level by referendum

Gun Crime - then they arn't a criminal yet are they? And I havn't proposed to take guns away from people because they MIGHT commit crimes in the next 50 years with these weapons.

Again, Hitler DID appeal to the desperate in Germany because ALL germans were now desperate. He promised them what they wanted and many lapped it up. As far as I'm aware the propaganda in the US didn't kick in till the war. I'm sure we've all seen the footage of the US ambassador saying the fuhrer is a reasonable man who will be good for Germany, and good ally to the US. Not to mention that it was US industry, particularly Chrysler and General Motors, that supplied Germany with engines, frames and structures to allow Germany to re-arm, occupy the Rhineland and the Sudetanland. It was only around 1935 that Germany really kicked off building its own bits again.

As with Germany, just about everyone in Europe was desperate. Spain was racked with civil war, Mussolini stole power in Italy, France was still recovering from WWII and Britain's economy was in tatters after the Wall Street Crash, leading to a coalition government.

On stealing: No, I don't assume people simply want bread and water. if that is all there is to life I may as well kill myself now. But in order to enjoy the better things in life people need those basics, and that is one key area that capitalism is totally failing in.

And I never said industries such as computers and video games would end. They are not as important as those basics, but still vital. And thus they would also continue.

There would be no communist secret police.

History doesn't always repeat itself. Britain has developed the archetypal representative democracy, and the US has created the archetypal liberal democracy. Yet most people who attempt to follow in our footsteps fail, and revert to semi-democracies or right back into authoritarianism.

No, if everyone isn't a liberal democrat then the revolution would not be able to stand a chance of victory, nor would the conditions to bring about a world wide revolution exist.

But as the western world is trying to create liberal democracies around the world, I don't see this as a problem. Capitalism, by fully realising itself, is undermining itself. And if all the capitalists are right, and liberal democracy is as good as it gets, we will find out once this liberal democratic world has been built. If they are right, I can stop my red flag waving and enjoy it.

Maybe some suffer? How lightly you toss aside the misery of most of the human race. Those TNC's donate not out of kindness, but either to improve their awful reputations or to get the ears of governments, to improve their own situation rather than those donated too.

As for China and the other 'post communist' societies that are booming, yes I agree with you and I would expect nothing less (unless you have incompetant leaders like in much of eastern europe). Why? Because none of those countries were communist. They were totalitarian, or highly authoritarian, at the very least, and capitalism is a vast improvement over those two systems.