[G. Adams]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (castille,)
Ok, about your replies:


</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (G. Adams,)

<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

HUMANITY
</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (G. Adams,)

As the laziness of ones damages the other workers, they could bring him up for not working hard enough. If he persists, they could vote for his removal.
<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

Leave things to mob rule eh? The Cultural Revolution in China (where thousands were murdered by youth mobs) showed the power of "giving power to the people". What if they vote for his execution because hes a Jew (and every fine German knows Jews are all evil!)?


GOVERNMENTS
You STILL haven't explained how people will be governed. Will we resort to mob rule? Local boys carrying AKs? Liberal democracies still see crime and corruption; the corruption will only extend into Communism.


PRODUCTION
</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (G. Adams,)
Within the workplace the workers will have the power to elect, and recall, managers. <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

Two words: Adolf Hitler. He also won democratically. People are not ruled by economics and logic; they are ruled by emotion.

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (G. Adams,)

If, and some communists are against this, there is a world council, forum not government style, that argues the best courses of action for humanity<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

So in other words, a group of Communist Elites will decide on the fate of humanity. Just like the USSR, Cuba, China, and North Korea.


</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (G. Adams,)

This is also another sticking point between communists. I believe that we would need a period where laws are still around, at least until this utopian dream starts becoming reality. <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

This is EXACTLY how the Soviet Union and China become dictatorships. What if those who enforce the laws don't want to give up their power? Just like Mao and the PLA, Stalin and the NKVD, Kim Il Song and his elite Communist leaders.


</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (G. Adams,)

Therefore there is some leadership, in that the most intelligent people, after being elected, can put forward their views to society, and its scrutiny.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

Did Adolf Hitler debate in an intelligent manner? If not, why did so many people worship him? In front of a crowd, its not intelligence that counts. Just look at the socialist protests. "Death to America!" And the crowd goes wild and burns another flag!


</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (G. Adams,)

If someone decided to establish their own city outside of the communist sphere, thats fine, as long as they aren't planting themselves ontop of something essential like an oil supply. <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

So if a group of people set up a city on top of an oil well, all the Communist "Utopias" will band together and destroy them? It would make Bush proud.

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (G. Adams,)

So instead of using vouchers, dated credits could be put onto a credit card. This prevents people stealing vouchers. To get the credits you could swipe the card through a machine that will only provide one set of fresh credits per day or per week to each card.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

A hacker's paradise. Can YOU trust your life savings with a computer? I hope not.

You also forget the urge to save. What if I want to save up my money for a rainy day? "Sorry sir, but you have to spend your money, or else the Communist Police will steal it from you." A lot of Confucian Asians would no doubt oppose this (ie. 2 billion people).



</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (G. Adams,)
As for people taking something on the side for themself, this would be prevented in the same way it is now, policing, but by the electorally accountable militias<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

How will a stupid teenager with an AK47 find out I've been stealing dried bread from the stocks? I could simply claim the bread was stolen by somebody else. Societies that prevent personal achievement will always see somebody trying to steal something.



Your theories are good, but you forget one thing: the transition to Commuism is the perfect breeding ground for opportunitists to take power for themselves! Mao Zedong is a prime example: he refused to give up his power, and hung onto it, and nobody could do anything about it. The Army, Communist Elites, and anyone with a gun was on his side.

A transition of power in any situation always leads to opportunity to grab power. Its not difficult. "A man with a gun is a man with power." Your militias are more likely to support a dictator who promises them more wealth.

I know if I was a militia leader, and some big guy at the top says "You can either live like the peasants, or join my cause and live like a king", I would join his cause. We've got enough bullets to shoot any peasant who rebels.



Want to know how effective rebellion is? Just ask the people of North Korea if they want to overthrow their leader.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

Damn this is gonna take ages to clear up what you ignored. Perhaps I am leaving holes in my writings because I think some things to obvious that there is no need to write them.

HUMANITY - Where did I say leave it to the mob? If you are at your workplace and you see someone consistently slacking you would bring it to the workplace. The worker would be warned, and as the group knows he may be a slacker they will pay more attention to him. If he continues everyone will have known about it and can then vote to throw him out. There, a democratic workplace. Now I know many of you might be scared at the idea of democracy, the unwashed masses having control over there own lives rather than distant elites, but it is a good thing.
As for your crack about Jews, as I have stated further down my previous post, all countries must achieve a liberal democratic state first in order for the people to learn to respect other peoples rights and lives. I don't see why any group, unless so desperate it will listen to the bullshit of demagogues, would want to infringe on the rights of another.

GOVERNMENT - People WON'T be governed, not in the traditional sense. Local councils, subject to recall, will do the jobs of 'governing', but they will be fully democratic to prevent them governing for themselves rather than their electorate.
And I've already said no to mob rule, its democratic rule tempered by liberalism. And why would any intelligent council appoint teenagers to become the local militia? Male teenagers hormones are off the chart anyway so give them an AK and they really would pose a risk. No, militia would be responsible, well trained citizens.
Under capitalism there is a very good reason to be corrupt, you aid your survival, as long as your not caught. But under communism if you were stealing things from your workplace, not enough would be delivered, risking the chance that you would not get supplies from another industry, thus threatening your living conditions. So why be corrupt?

PRODUCTION - What has Adolf Hitler got to do with electing people to be managers of a workplace? I'm sure he could have orchastrated the genocide with the power of a sandwhich production line manager. The sort of power Hitler had would be unachievable. And Hitler was only elected into power because Germany was so racked with poverty that its citizens would listen to any excuse and fabled solution to its problems, and Hitler had easy answers to both those needs.

Why would some communists elites rule the world? This forum has no power, except to debate on TV, or whatever communication device, what they think is best for humanity. It takes the ratification of a referendum to begin anything, and still requires the populations active work to achieve it, since this council would have no executive capabilities to execute its plans. More importantly, these people would be elected, not the self appointed figures of Mao and Kim Il Song.

If someone didn't want to give up the US presidency, what happens? Nothing, he still gets kicked out anyway, its just tough for them. I don't see why any councillor or judge that wanted to stay where they were would do anything different. Besides, IMO, these councils should only cover around 50 000 people at most, so its not like the councillors would have much power anyway.

But as I have already said, the entire sane, none criminal populace would be armed and trained, so if anyone tried something like that, they could revolt and replace them.

"Did Adolf Hitler debate in an intelligent manner? If not, why did so many people worship him? In front of a crowd, its not intelligence that counts. Just look at the socialist protests. "Death to America!" And the crowd goes wild and burns another flag!"

Hitler was presenting his views to crowds of desperate people searching for answers, and he gave them some, ones that played upon old fears. But why would such a similar set of circumstances arise to allow another Hitler figure to come about? Prior to any communist revolution I want all countries to be liberal democracies. That would mean these people have all been educated, and have grown up respecting rights. There had been no such culture in Germany, except in the Universities, nor had their been in Russia. So there is no reason to suggest that under a communist system people would ignore there upbringing in a rights respecting culture.

"So if a group of people set up a city on top of an oil well, all the Communist "Utopias" will band together and destroy them? It would make Bush proud"

Destroy them? It would be stopped before they built upon the oil, therefore preventing the need to destroy them.

And as you have highlighted with Bush, such a policy goes on under capitalism, not just communism, making it irrelevant as we are purely working on the flaws of communism here.

"A hacker's paradise. Can YOU trust your life savings with a computer? I hope not.

You also forget the urge to save. What if I want to save up my money for a rainy day? "Sorry sir, but you have to spend your money, or else the Communist Police will steal it from you." A lot of Confucian Asians would no doubt oppose this (ie. 2 billion people)."

Trust my life savings to a computer? What life savings? And what has someone to rob from me, they can have what I have anyway through their work.

And the communist police wouldn't steal your money, apart from the police and money not existing, as the vouchers would simply be out of date.

And what need is there to save for a rainy day, its not like your job is going to be taken from you (without another waiting) just because some faceless CEO is trying to boost profits? You can get everything you need materially through your work, thus defeating the point of saving.

"How will a stupid teenager with an AK47 find out I've been stealing dried bread from the stocks? I could simply claim the bread was stolen by somebody else. Societies that prevent personal achievement will always see somebody trying to steal something."

Again this is not relevant to this discussion because it is not a feature of communism alone but entirely possible under capitalism. Why do 99% of people under capitalism not steal from their workplace? Same reason they wouldn't under communism. As with it is now, apart from most people finding stealing morally objectionable, if they are caught, most likely by a colleague, they will be handed to the police. If someone was caught, most likely by a colleague, they would be handed to the militia.

And again, its not some stupid teenager with a gun, its a trained militia made of local citizens.

"Your theories are good, but you forget one thing: the transition to Commuism is the perfect breeding ground for opportunitists to take power for themselves! Mao Zedong is a prime example: he refused to give up his power, and hung onto it, and nobody could do anything about it. The Army, Communist Elites, and anyone with a gun was on his side."

Yes, the transition to Communism does afford a great oppurtunity to those who try for it. But I believe that as the population would be armed, and well experienced in war after a revolution, they would not sacrifice there new found freedom to such oppurtunists. Sadly communist revolutions were attempted in countries still in the throws of feudalism, making success impossible to begin with.

Cynacism only keeps people down. We can't get any better than this the surfs must have also thought under feudalism, and now you and so many say the same thing of capitalism.

Remember the militia are appointed by a council, who are elected, and both are fully accountable to the electorate once in such positions. The populace wouldn't vote for people suspected to make moves in directions towards such dictatorship. And if they did, they could fight the populace.These peasents as you call them would themselves be armed and trained, I don't see how say 5000 militiamen could fight 45 000 revolutionaries.

I bet they do want to overthrow him, but (i'll have to check on this) I don't think the North Koreans are an armed populace.