[atheist]

Quote by: brien I am not advocating taking advantage of anyone in society. PH raised the specter that since some people are controlled by others, it could lead to abuse. All my response was saying is that there are two ways to counteract this. Punishment through criminal prosecution and safeguards to make certain the donor is ready, willing, and able. There already are safeguards in place when people donate organs. They can be used to regulate the sales as well.

Donating is different than selling. You've got too many legal problems that can arise, loopholes, etc. Also, with money involved, the action of giving a piece of your body away will require much investigation before operation (I think, much like how transgenders must go through therapy first before getting a gender reassignment).

"Although the outright purchase of organs is illegal in nearly every country in the world, a number have black markets for living-donor organs, and the results have been frightening. A study of 305 living kidney donors in Madras (Chennai), India, found that 96 percent sold a kidney to pay off debts, receiving Rs.50, 000 or US $1,070 a piece. But 75 percent of the respondents soon faced debt and destitution once again, and 79 percent would not recommend organ selling to others. Permitting trade in organs has already led to the exploitation of the poor."
-source here

You get people regetting their decisions, all because they were too quick to jump at the opportunity to get money.
One could argue that "well it's their fault for being greedy," but that is really really insensitive to the issues that lower socio economic classes are going through. Like the quote says, it leads to exploitation of the poor.

And if a market does arise from organ selling, people will eventually start to feel that it would be okay to sell their organs without government consent. Going to shady doctors, or maybe going into the black market and selling their organs overseas via warehouse surgeries or doing it in some dirty environment......

Quote by: brien This is actuallly funny if you are serious. Do you think people can show up with a dead body and say "here, its for sale" ? Or surely you don't think they can show up with a pair of kidneys in a cooler as ask "how much for these?" Please get real...

I am serious, and it's definitely NOT funny.
Things like this happen in other countries, because there are willing buyers.
If a market becomes established for organ selling, this will mean that one will have to be established for organ buying. A wider organ buying market = more chances for illegal activity. It's common sense.

Quote by: brien I think your chicken little interpretation here is a bit of a stretch. I doubt all of the homeless people will go missing upon the establishment of human organ sales.

True, but I brought up the homeless as one possible example among many others.
Overall the system is exploiting the poor, in order for people who can afford organs reap the benefits.
This organ selling business is really chicken scratch compared to all the other health care problems out there. We should rather look for ways to stop development of some fatal organ-taking disease, rather than trying to fix the problem after its already taken root. Prevention of a disease as treatment is much more effective than trying to treat the disease after it's affected someone. For example, people could actually exercise once in a while, or stop smoking....

Quote by: brien Because human organ sales become legal doesn't mean people will begin to diasppear in a sinister manner.

Again, an organ-buying market = more room for illegal activity. Body snatching is not a non-existent problem in the world today. Because it does happen in other countries, even while it is illegal. Opening an organ-buying market will just make it worse.

Quote by: brien Only the family of the deceased could sell their relatives organs, and in the case of a person selling their own kidney, there could be the same safeguards applied to those who already donate them for others. There is the possibility of abuse, but this is true with anything in society. The benefits outweigh the risks and when there are abuses discovered they can be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. People are injured and killed everyday in automobile accidents, cars are stolen, even used for car bombs, but we don't ban cars because the risks are outweighed by the benefits gained from the automobile.

Comparing car stealing to organ stealing is not the same. Cars are inanimate, non-biological objects and have no life. They are easily replaced/duplicable. Organs are not.
I think that that statement "there is the possibility of abuse" is downplayed too much. Abuse of the system WILL happen. Even without knowing what will happen if a system arises, it's pretty apparent that the system abuses the poor. It's disgusting, in my opinion. Especially if you wave money in front of their face at such a high price, as a kidney.

Also, if a deceased person's family members can make the decision of selling that person's organs for money, without a doubt there will be cases in which family members will somehow be able to unfairly cohere the dying family member to sell their organs.
It can create a lot of grief on part of the dying person, even if they don't have that many days left in the world.
For example, you know you're going to die in a week, your parents want you to sell your organs, and guilt you into it because they say that the hospital bills are so high. So you agree to sell your organs. Believe it or not, but for some people, their bodies are sacred things and they'd like to have them in tact when they're put in the ground. Facing the decision of parting with a part of themselves can be emotionally trying and put that person into a lot of stress, especially if they feel obligated to help pay for their hospitalization. It's just too unfair towards the dying person, in this situation.

ALSO, as another case, what if, when a person agrees that after they die and they want to sell their organs, they mysteriously die a few months later? A lot of suspicion may arise from the death, including questions like, what if someone killed them for the money from selling their organs? I know it may seem like I'm blowing this out of proportion, but this -will- probably happen a few times if organ selling/buying is legalized.

Quote by: brien The argument that some people may be forced into the sales of their own organs is more of a over-reaction by those who don't trust people to manage themselves, or when they are incapable of doing so, do not trust those who care for them to protect them from abuse.

Not an overreaction. A very possible truth. Already in China (where organ selling is illegal) there are cases in which prisoners are forced to give their organs away (because the organ buying market there is much more open).
There are a lot of manipulative and mean people out there. To be so optimistic as to believe that this system will work so smoothly is really naive.

Quote by: brien Furthermore, most organs would probably come from the recently deceased and each person is required to have a death certificate so if there is any question as to the cause of death, it gets investigated anyway. People who are unrelated to the donor would simply be barred from being involved in the sale.

Okay, so what if I'm enstranged from my family, but somehow end up dead on their couch? Even if people are related to one another it doesn't mean that they will respect one anothers' death wishes. My dad wants to be cremated with his ashes scattered over some cliff, but when he dies he's going to be buried next to my mother, case closed.
Even with related-ness in the equation, it doesn't mean that the dead relative in question will not be exploited by living relatives.

Quote by: brien These legitimate concerns pale in nature to the concern of a person who requires a liver but the family of the deceased donor is unwilling to give it up. By introducing the sales of organs, it would close the gap between the dead who don't need their organs and those who will die without them.

Shortages are shortages. Tough. People in Darfur/S.Korea/whathaveyou are dying from shortages of food that people in America are in excess of.
People die everyday. It's sad of course. But organ selling should be the least of our concerns on the list of things to get through. Organ selling/buying also creates too many legal and moral problems anyway, and would create a distraction from issues that people today really need to pay attention to (such as global warming! what's the point of helping people live longer lives, when we'll all die from a depletion of ozone (which = radiation leakage into the environment) anyway?).