Volconvo Debate Forums - View Single Post

Geoff332 · Oct 15, 2003, 07:31 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
The main argument for Communism is that everyone can be equal, irregardless of the circumstance.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>The main argument for communism -- at least the main one proposed by Marx (and most marxists) -- is that the capitalist labour process is inherently and unavoidably exploitative and this exploitation will lead to the eventual collapse of the capitalist system of production, replacing it with a system whereby people are fully involved in the productive system and receive the full value of their efforts.
<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
The main argument for capitalism is individual freedom, and the ability to do what you want (excluding dumb things like murder and bombing your school).<hr size="1" /></blockquote>The main argument for capitalism is that if everyone acts in accordance to their own self-interest, within the bounds of justice, then this will produce a pareto optimal position, which will optimise both wealth and the distribution of that wealth.

(Both communism and capitalism define wealth in terms of production of commodities)
<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
Psychologically, people who get rewards consistently will only exert minimum effort to get the reward.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>The empirical evidence on the link between rewards and behaviour is far, far more complex and ambiguous. They tend to work well in simple situations where rewards are directly tied to output, but in more complex situations where ambiguity and uncertainty dominate (ie pretty much every situation in real life), the stimulus-reponse link is tenuous, at best.
<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
What controls are there to prevent "mindless hard work" (ie a man working 100 hours a week without achieving anything)<hr size="1" /></blockquote>I can tell you from direct experience that these things happen under capitalist systems -- frequently. Very frequently. They're even rewarded more often than not -- largely because modern work is generally complex and ambiguous, with outputs being very difficult to measaure with enough precision to work in a reward/punishment model. Instead, effort (time) is often substituted as a measure of performance.

I would, therefore, propose that these are characteristics of human nature and no economic system will actually resolve them.

Oct 15, 2003, 07:31 am	#2 (permalink) (top)
Geoff332 Igneous Magma Location: New Zealand Posts: 309	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by The main argument for Communism is that everyone can be equal, irregardless of the circumstance.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>The main argument for communism -- at least the main one proposed by Marx (and most marxists) -- is that the capitalist labour process is inherently and unavoidably exploitative and this exploitation will lead to the eventual collapse of the capitalist system of production, replacing it with a system whereby people are fully involved in the productive system and receive the full value of their efforts. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by The main argument for capitalism is individual freedom, and the ability to do what you want (excluding dumb things like murder and bombing your school).<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>The main argument for capitalism is that if everyone acts in accordance to their own self-interest, within the bounds of justice, then this will produce a pareto optimal position, which will optimise both wealth and the distribution of that wealth. (Both communism and capitalism define wealth in terms of production of commodities) </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by Psychologically, people who get rewards consistently will only exert minimum effort to get the reward.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>The empirical evidence on the link between rewards and behaviour is far, far more complex and ambiguous. They tend to work well in simple situations where rewards are directly tied to output, but in more complex situations where ambiguity and uncertainty dominate (ie pretty much every situation in real life), the stimulus-reponse link is tenuous, at best. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by What controls are there to prevent "mindless hard work" (ie a man working 100 hours a week without achieving anything)<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>I can tell you from direct experience that these things happen under capitalist systems -- frequently. Very frequently. They're even rewarded more often than not -- largely because modern work is generally complex and ambiguous, with outputs being very difficult to measaure with enough precision to work in a reward/punishment model. Instead, effort (time) is often substituted as a measure of performance. I would, therefore, propose that these are characteristics of human nature and no economic system will actually resolve them.