[Osborn F Enready]

Tivo said: At the risk of dredging up the past, i am resurrecting this old thread in an attempt to understand this argument better (the argument that there is something wrong with the type of flag in our courtrooms). I apologize if this argument is moot (because the arguers no longer believe it, or whatever)

I say:
No sweat. I apologize for the time it is taking to answer. Been sidetracked lately.

Tivo said: But military law and admiralty law are two different things.

I say:
Correct, part of the reason for the entire argument.

Tivo said: Furthermore, "admiralty" law is not a jurisdiction in and of itself. The Constitution gives the federal courts, among other things, the jurisdiction to hear admiralty cases among other things.

I say:
But what is and what is not an "admiralty law" case?

Is the government justified to hear a case under admiralty law, if the case itself is not "under jurisdiction" of admiralty law?

In other words....
If the local court wanted to treat my traffic ticket as a case under admiralty law, would it be legal? According to what? Where is the authority derived from?

You yourself say they are different, so why are they different?

Tivo said: Okay. So this flag can be flown in each military courtroom. So what? Just because it CAN be flown in a military courtroom doesn't mean that anywhere that flies it IS a military courtroom. You are making the logical mistake of assuming that "If A, then B" is necessarily equal to "If B, then A". For argumentum ad absurdum: If I hang up an American flag with gold fringe in my bathroom, does that mean I can hold maritime court on my can?

I say:
If you are a federal court judge, or a judge of any type, you may think so.

Are you saying the customs of our American flag in court is meaningless?

If so, attempt to remove it without permission, deface it or dispose of it properly by burning it.

Try telling that to a vet that faced armed combat against an enemy over it.

Try telling that to a Supreme Court justice, and see where the lawyer career goes.

Anyway.... the flag is more than just a "symbol", especially in a courtroom, and it has "customs" for its hanging, disposal and display, especially in a government workplace.

Tivo said: Sorry, but that is either lousy research, or serious intellectual dishonesty. You conveniently left off the rest of subclause 3. The entire thing is below:

I say:
I did leave it out on purpose. It wasn't pertinent.

It was clarifying where admiralty court could be convened.

Tivo said: Ok. So what? That doesn't have anything to do with the jurisdiction of courts. There is no statutory authority that says the flag can have a patch on the trim on the hoist side that says "this flag proudly union made in USA", but mine has that patch anyway

.

I say:
Yours, as in yours personally? What are you trying to say?

Are you disregarding all customs for the U.S. flag in government capacity?
Are you saying U.S. flags customs mean nothing?

The flag has a meaning, as does each item ON the flag, as does the customs for its OFFICIAL display and rendering on government soil.

Do you dispute that?

Tivo said: So which is it, marital law or military law or admiralty law? VERY different things.

I say:
I agree. Why then is this not clearly explained and debunked?
Why are there judges who "refuse to have the law heard in their court"?
Why are there judges who "refuse to have the Constitution brought into their courtroom?"

I am searching for excuses to JUSTIFY the actions of the judges, this was a grasp at an explanation, which seemed valid.

Tivo said: And? All this means is that if you proceed in a court you are agreeing to its jurisdiction... Which isn't even entirely true. To challenge jurisdiction, you can make a "special appearance" which maintains your objection to jurisdiction, and, if successful, completely removes the case from that court's jurisdiction.

I say:
Is the judge forced to allow this? Are people informed of their right to do such action?

Tivo said: If only it were that simple. Jurisdiction is not a matter of waving a flag in a courtroom. Courts often apply jurisdictions of many areas for which they might not have a flag. NY courts have applied Florida state law, Ontario Provincial law, and PA state law in cases that I know of. Do you think they have a collection of flags in the back that they whip out whenever they need to change what set of laws they are applying?

I say:
Again, are you saying flags and their customs have no meanings in government anymore? Can the government choose what it will and won't regard or disregard at whim?

Tivo said: But up above you said it represents military law (or that it was a military flag)... the two are quite different. At any rate, it does neither.

I say:
Since when?

When U.S. Flags and custom laws were created, how many types of law were there Tivo?

If the customs are so "meanigless" as you say, why have them at all?

Tivo said: Why not? It is meaningless what flag is standing in a courtroom to the jurisdiction. I've seen plenty of courtrooms with NO flag. Are they courts of anarchy?

I say:
Are you asking me, or being sarcastic?

Tivo said: Stop using these terms as though they are interchangeable. They aren't.

I say:
When did the U.S. develop its "flag customs" in written word?
When did the official U.S. Military start?
What was military law before military law? Admiralty Law.

Tivo said: The court cases do not say that the courts operate under admiralty jurisdiction or anything else. All of the other "rules" you cite have nothing to do with establishing the jurisdiction of a court.

I say:
Just flags and customs....

Tivo said: Any law "preventing" anyone from flying a particular flag in the United States would violate the First Amendment, for starters.

I say:
Are you trying to tell me that U.S. courts can fly any flag they want in place of a U.S. flag?

Is a court an individual? Did I say individuals couldn't fly any flag they wanted?



This argument is dated, and I have long lost all of my bookmarks with my two computer swaps since the thread started. I am not saying I am wrong however, simply not fully armed with what I had when I wrote the replies.

I find it funny that customs for the flag mean so much when it is time to talk about Veterans Day, soldiers or liberty as a politician, but mean so little when discussing the legality of display in an official government structure, operated by government employees, doing government work.

Hope they don't try to burn one..... as required for flags past their useful life.
Suddenly, they may find those customs mean something...... to people that fight and die for them and what they stand for.