[Atlas]

Quote by: ise (I'll answer this before the previous one as it was how you first intended...) I was not correcting your grammar. I said clearly that it was the length of your sentence. OK. And they are still too long. Yes, we are talking about Lebanon and Hezbollah. Read the previous posting as to this. It is the implementation of the laws that concern me. Having the laws on the books to appease the US or EU does not concern me. If half Israel's laws were implemented, there might be some chance of peace.

You jut brought an example of how they are, after all, the soldier was convicted, and got acquitted after almost a year, I'm not saying the enforcement is perfect, but yet, it exists. at least Israel is honest enough to have a code of military law based on ethics, I don't see any terrorist launching a rocket into the heart of civilian population in Israel gets condemned by his fellow Palestinians, not even talking about arrest there.
Peace would be possible if Palestinians would have even the slightest amount of ethics that Israeli society possesses to enforce control over such acts of violence against civilians and protest against them.

Quote by: ise Please explain..."the IDF does not use its own population as human shields". The words are clear but I'm lost as to their meaning.

Meaning the IDF never used Israeli population as cover, it will never put a combat military installation or vehicle in a populated area of Israel, then you could say even if they did it will not work as Hizbollah definitely targeted civilian areas with its rockets in the last war, guerrilla freedom fighter heh ?

Quote by: ise Is this A or B or is A and B. It does not make sense to me. They love them and/or hate them at the same time? Whether it is A or B, does that make the civilians legitimate targets? Or is it not just straight forward blind retaliation and revenge? That I can understand but please do not dress it up as more than the most base of human desires. Who invented "an eye for an eye"?

The principle is found originally in Babylonian Law, see Code of Hammurabi.

its A or B, you can clearly understand that from simple logic, and no, it is not an excuse to kill civilians, but if a local population does not stop their own countrymen from killing innocent civilians in another country, than that country has the right to take measures of dealing with the terrorists among them, and eventually innocents will get hurt from that population in one way or another, thus ordinary Palestinians pay the price of their own inaction and silence.

Quote by: ise "When the IDF allows itself to commit such acts in foreign population, the Israeli society sees it as a degradation of its values." Yes, I believe you may have inadvertently hit upon the truth. Israel values are totally degraded. (What this thread is about.) The state I so admired in my youth no longer exists. Decades of repression, fear, bullying etc has lead to every sin under the sun. Racism, apartheid, corruption, sexism, discrimination, arrogance, lies, murder and mayhem, and on and on. Given enough time the odd rotten apple will rot them all. In Israel's case, there certainly were enough to start with, but it's putrid now. ...to be continued.

Even if that degradation is so severe, at least it constantly admits that something went wrong with it, exposing corruptions, protesting political bureaucracy, protesting violation of human rights, protesting social policy, you yourself quoted much of those protests, a society built on such self improvement, socially and morally, and on learning from previous mistakes is not a society destined to rot from within like so many societies do in those days (Palestinians would be a nice example), I foresee far more glorious days for the Jewish state and its people, even if fore the time it is having a dark period of its own.

Quote by: ise So you dispute that Jews against Zionism is also not objective. Why is that? How small a minority are they. Is what they say against Zionism RIGHT or WRONG?

Of course you guessed I think them mostly wrong, with sources from acknowledged anti-Zionist writers, but they are entitled to think and say what they want, they are mostly based in the US, where they enjoy almost limitless as any citizen freedom, so it is understandable their passion for independence is not strong, according to wikipedia, there are about 200,000 of Jews, most are deeply religious and based in the US that consider themselves to be anti-Zionists, and from 12 million Jews in the world, I think that they are quite a small minority.

Quote by: ise What??? Could you rephrase it yet again, please? Who does not use who as human shields?

Must have forgotten those memory pills again...

Quote by: ise I'm not the one doing the digging. Let me tease this out. You chose a number of sources that somehow believe that Hezbollah uses its community as human shields. I say that Israel is racist as it believes that other human beings are capable of deliberately endangering their children as human shields. You conclude from this that I infer/suggest that your sources are racist. Is that your case? On a kind day, I suggest twisted logic.

You said:

I say that only Zionist would consider that Hezbollah would consider using their children as human shields. Only RACISTS would believe that other human beings would do so. You would need to be a SICK SICK degenerate to believe that other humans would do such a thing. Yes, I say again, only an absolute RACIST would believe that Arabs would use their kids as shields when more dead Arabs would result.

Lets analyze that, shall we ?

First you say only Zionist (which are of course racists) would believe such a thing, then you claim I chose a number of sources that somehow believe that Hezbollah uses its community as human shields., saying that Israel and my sources believe in that, then you claim Only RACISTS would believe that other human beings would do so. You would need to be a SICK SICK degenerate to believe that other humans would do such a thing. Yes, I say again, only an absolute RACIST would believe that Arabs would use their kids as shields when more dead Arabs would result with reference to anyone who thinks so, so either you are saying my sources don't believe what they write or that they are in deed racists.

Quote by: ise Holocaust or Irish Famine. Are we trading historical facts now for some reason. What has the Holocaust got to do with this?

With all do respect to the Irish famine that you brought up, I seriously think you might have some basic understanding issues, I'll try to simplify that for you as much as I can, If you believe anyone capable of only thinking that Hezbollah is morally able to commit such atrocities like using its own civilian population as human shields is a racist, then what would you say about people only believing the holocaust (as an example of an even larger atrocity) happened ?

Bottom line, you can't turn a blind eye on inhuman acts, then accuse the people who saw it and\or believe them to be true because you can't handle the meaning of the acts actual existence.

Quote by: ise "you're never going to get it in peaceful ways with that attitude, just like they would not" You're joking. "You're never going to get [peace]t in peaceful ways with that attitude". Is there another way to get REAL peace unless it is a peaceful way?

No, that's why your peace isn't real, as it is based on hate and unwillingness to see the global picture, your view is as one sided as a pointing arrow.

Quote by: ise I have no idea why your Arabs for Israel or the other two should choke me. Them seem to be from crackpots. Have you some point to make or should I guess? Why anyone in their right mind would be interested is beyond me.

Now I'm even calmer then before, if he best argument you can find against that is calling them crackpots then I can be sure anti-Zionism in the hands of people like you is a safe haven for the fools. My point would be that even some of ones who by nationality culture and religion have a basic negative stance against Israel, find through logical means a way of better understanding the other side and come up with a much more tolerant and realizable version of peace than the one you seem to posses (or does it posses you ?).