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Quote by: rmnunez ndeed, and what point is that? Do you see the glass half empty and words like "stagnated", "bogged-down" or "stuck" first come to mind? Regime change was successful, a fairly representative national government has been installed through a democratic process -a first among Muslims in the Middle East.

Is it? Today I read that "Prime minister's Shiite support is eroding"

--"Leaders of the Shiite Muslim alliance that governs Iraq have given Prime Minister Ibrahim al-Jaafari until today to convince his opponents he should retain his job in Iraq's next government or face being pushed aside, U.S. and Iraqi officials said."--

So, three months after the election, Iraq still does not have a stable government. Meanwhile, also today...

--"Violence continued across the country, meanwhile, with at least 20 people killed. The U.S. military said one of its helicopters had gone down southwest of Baghdad while on combat air patrol. The status of the crew was unknown, a military statement said."--

What? You mean we don't know where they are? Are there still places in Iraq we can't go?

Plus, the various militias continue to grow in a vicious cycle... citizens in Sunni and Shiite areas, terrified of opposing militias and death squads, with no faith in the Iraqi army or police to provide security, are incresingly throwing their support behind their own militias, who promptly terrorize the other side, causing them to increase their militias. Meanwhile, you have gang of just plain criminals dressed up in uniforms running around kidnapping 1 to 20 Iragis a day to extort ransoms.

Quote by: rmnunez This is accomplishment enough, despite the insurgency.

Not really... it was an artificial milestone. Sure, it's a sign of some progress, but after 3 years, failing to make any progress would have been more remarkable. But it's not solving anything. Even today, Iraqis still, after three years, can't get adequate power, water, sewage or phone service. American troops stopped all those lovely construction projects -- schools, clinics, etc. -- a couple years ago because all of them were needed to deal with the insurgency problem.

Quote by: rmnunez The insurgency goes in the minus column, the democratic experience is a plus.

I assume you meant to preface that with the word 'IF'.

Quote by: rmnunez Restoration of human rights at the pedestrian level has got to be worth something, under Saddam when one of the depraved sought you or yours out, you had no rights. Now, if your kid gets mangled in an accident with some military, there is at least some financial compensation.

Unfortunately, with the increase in sectarian violence, human rights has pretty much gone out the window too. However bad Hussein was, the militias certainly aren't any better.

Quote by: rmnunez I would note these shortcomings all have to do with the derided "nationbuilding" component now attached to intervention. The UN should be doing this,

You mean the 'nationbuilding' that Bush vowed we would never do? And as far as the UN goes, I'm afraid we burned our bridges with them some time ago. And because of our refusal to support the UN, with either money or manpower, there isn't diddlysquat they could do in Iraq under the present circumstances anyway. They'd simply be a massive target.

Quote by: rmnunez The casualty rate is terrible, but not intolerable, buck up!

It's not about the numbers of casualties, it's about the fact there weren't supposed to be any in the first place... we'd be gone by Christmas. It's about a steady, unending grind of our military resources that's stretching it to the breaking point... a war of slow and steady attrition, death by a thousand cuts, that our military simply isn't designed to deal with and our citizens were not prepared for.

Quote by: rmnunez It won't go away if the west leaves them alone. Leaving Iraq (or Afghanistan) will invariably be read as a terrorist victory, a victory of Islamic fundamentalism over the infidel (capitalist imperalists in western terminology).

I've already stated my belief that we're there because Osama bin Laden wanted us there. 9/11 was simply the means to provoke us into going. Up until then, terrorist attacks against our interests were vicious but sporatic... the price of global empire. Only now, with our massive presence and investment of resources in Iraq, on the ground of their choosing, can their terrorism really hurt us... simply by making Iraq ungovernable they are eroding our military, beggering our economy, shredding our international influence and dividing our country.