[Jimmy the Pro]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer "Did Jesus exist? If not, then there's not much to talk about. If he did, he called himself Lord. This means that either: He was Lord, He was a liar, or He was a lunatic. It's unlikely he was a liar, given his morals as described in the Bible, and his behavior doesn't sound like that of a lunatic. So surely we must conclude that he was Lord?" Firstly, note that this argument hinges on the assumption that Jesus did in fact exist. This is at least debatable. Secondly, the argument attempts a logical fallacy which we might call "trifurcation", by analogy with "bifurcation". That is, the argument attempts to restrict us to three possibilities, when in fact there are many more. Two of the more likely alternatives are: He was misquoted in the Bible, and did not claim to be Lord. The stories about him were made up, or embroidered with fictitious material by the early Christians. Note that in the New Testament Jesus does not say that he is God, although John 10:30 claims that he said "I and my father are one". The claim that Jesus was God was first made after the death of Jesus and his twelve disciples. Finally, note that the possibility that he was a "lunatic" is not easily discountable. Even today in the western world there are numerous people who have managed to convince hundreds or thousands of followers that they are the Lord or his One True Prophet. People like L. Ron Hubbard, Sun Myung Moon, Jim Jones and David Koresh continue to peddle their divinity. In more superstitious countries, there are literally hundreds of present-day messiahs.

So chainer, do you wish to give your own reply or babble of nothing?

Now to analyze your nothing.

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer "Did Jesus exist? If not, then there's not much to talk about. If he did, he called himself Lord. This means that either: He was Lord, He was a liar, or He was a lunatic. It's unlikely he was a liar, given his morals as described in the Bible, and his behavior doesn't sound like that of a lunatic. So surely we must conclude that he was Lord?" Firstly, note that this argument hinges on the assumption that Jesus did in fact exist. This is at least debatable.

Yes there are many more things we describe Him as, however these are three main ideas of what he was.

I may have only three idea's of what a car is: A van, a truck, or an SUV, but that certainly does not limit myself to only those three choices, however, when I say car, those are the main three that come to mind.

Next let us go to your first point doubting the existance of Jesus. Let me aquaint you with the premise in my original post that implies while we debate we debate in terms of Jesus existing. Otherwise this becomes a debate of His own existence and we would not want to have this thread go awry.

Quote by: chainer Secondly, the argument attempts a logical fallacy which we might call "trifurcation", by analogy with "bifurcation". That is, the argument attempts to restrict us to three possibilities, when in fact there are many more.

That is not a fallacy of logic, rather a restriction of such. (logic)

And as I have pointed above even if it does, those are just three main arguements. Of course there are more.

Quote by: chainer Two of the more likely alternatives are: He was misquoted in the Bible, and did not claim to be Lord. The stories about him were made up, or embroidered with fictitious material by the early Christians. Note that in the New Testament Jesus does not say that he is God, although John 10:30 claims that he said "I and my father are one". The claim that Jesus was God was first made after the death of Jesus and his twelve disciples.

Chainer, how is Jesus misquoted when he is quote thousands of times. And not just by a group of close friends, but by the many many people who have written in the New Testament.

Second, this claim is no ordinary statement. In fact I think that you will find this point erronius if you look at the reason why Jesus died. Because He was charged with Blasphemy! Now that charge brought upon Him shows that he indeed claim to be the Lord. If He did die on the cross, then His crime was blasphemy, which meant He to claim to be God.

A point of the stories being made up.

Women were looked down upon in those days.

Why then, are women presented as those who find Jesus, showing women to have an important role in delivering the Good News to the desciples if the story was made up for people to believe?

If Jesus resurrected, why then did He not stay full time, or why did He never stay?

This is a curious point. If the desciples are trying to get people to believe they would have done 1 of 2 things. A: made Him come back so the people would have a Savior to look up to, and then find an imposter to fit the role. or B: Never had him come back at all so that they could claim Him alive and in heaven.

It makes no sense for Him to be here for 40 days and then leave. Just when He has come to free the people He leaves? There is no sense in that.

There are indeed certain qualities to this story in the Bible that seem stupid to say if you are trying to make a credible story.

Note that there are over 100,000 versions of the Bible and just because you say that one version you have randomly picked out doesn't say it means you make the claim he never said it. There is a logical fallacy. Just because one says so, does not mean all affirm that point.

Quote by: chainer Finally, note that the possibility that he was a "lunatic" is not easily discountable. Even today in the western world there are numerous people who have managed to convince hundreds or thousands of followers that they are the Lord or his One True Prophet. People like L. Ron Hubbard, Sun Myung Moon, Jim Jones and David Koresh continue to peddle their divinity. In more superstitious countries, there are literally hundreds of present-day messiahs.

Learn to note that nothing is easily discountable as long as people become skepticle and that it is not easy to discount the possiblity of Him being God either. The rest of this post is irrelevant and serves to affirm people have different mindsets, not that one idea does not exist. :rolleyes: