[SoccerfreakAB2]

Quote by: dthmstr254 ok, now, to start here, I will start in what is most likely the oldest book in the Bible, and possibly one of the oldest writings we have copies of, the book of Job. most likely, this book was written by an eyewitness, according to many of the teachers at Tennessee Temple Baptist Seminary, one of Job's friends. the setting would most likely be as old as the history of written history, pre or early Sumer times (given the lack of mentioning of important cities that Jews would be familiar with, evidence that the writer was most likely not Jewish). anyways, in the book of Job, we have pictures of two of the Trinity, namely, God the Son, and God the Father. in the early parts of the book, Satan comes to God and challenges Him, betting that Job would curse God if he were deprived of family and wealth, and later, his health. in each of these scenes, God "walks" while doing this. now, to my knowledge, something can't walk unless it has feet (of some type), and it can't have feet unless it has a physical form. now, we also see several times what Christians refer to as "Christographies," where Christ came down in the Old Testament times. two examples of this would be where Abraham talked with the Lord (who was in the form of a glorified being), and when there was a "fourth man" in the fiery furnace with Shadraq, Meshack, and Abednego. the Father is quite clearly illustrated throughout the Old and New Testament. the Spirit of the Lord is basically the being of God that embodies (not literally) His WILL. the Spirit of the Lord, in the New Testament is called the Holy Spirit, was shown many times in the Old Testament. that is the embodiment of God's will, everywhere the Spirit is mentioned, it is directly mentioned with guidance. the Spirit is also called the "presence of the Lord" in many places in the Old Testament, including in the cloud/pillar of fire in Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy and Numbers (not in order, so sue me.)

Dude, you could have summed that up in like 3 sentences. Here's what I gathered from the rubble that actually pertained to what I want to know...1) The Holy Spirit is the Will 2) The Spirit is present 3) There's a Father, a Son, and a God 4) The Holy Spirit is the 4th entity? Ok, still lost in this mess.

Quote by: dthmstr254 now, most people know the "canned argument" that is used in the New Testament, so, lets just skip over that and get to your main question: is Jesus God? the answer I have, most definitely, without a doubt, yes. we can see that through what investigators would call a profile matchup..

So God and Jesus are the same? So how can he be the father if he's the son, too? And why give separate names? Why not stick with just God? And if they are the same entity, who was up there in the sky while "Jesus" was down here, even though that was himself? And if God willingly came down then (in the form of Jesus or something) to show us his own self and to have faith in him, why not come down in person to everyone, instead of just showing a handful of people and even though he knows most will be skeptical? And even though he knows when he "creates" us that we will or will not be skeptical towards his existence, since he only revealed himself to some?

Quote by: dthmstr254 all-powerful: see the miracles and the ressurection. all-loving: see the attitude behind the miracles and the teachings, and the motives for his death on the cross (John 3:16, for God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on Him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.) all-knowing: Mark 2 illustrates how Jesus knew exactly what the pharisees were thinking (thinking that He was blaspheming by saying "son, thy sins be forgiven thee"), and then proved what He had said by curing his palsy ("son, take up thy bed and walk"). basically, he not only said that He was God, but He proved that He was God through that healing, no doubt you would believe at least that God was behind that healing if you witnessed a guy you had seen and known was crippled and unable to walk, suddenly get up and walk with the weight of his bed on top. all-wise: refer to his teachings, especially the sermon on the mount. the rabbis of the day thought they could gain recognition by citing other older or long dead rabbis (something I know you here at volconvo hate). Jesus was an enigma of sorts, He had His own authority. He denied most of the teachings of the rabbis (teaching to love your enemy, while the rabbis taught the opposite) and cited Himself as an authority. He was so much of an enigma (yes, I like that word) that when He entered a city, He was asked to teach at many many places (back then it was common practice to invite a visiting teacher to the synagogue to teach. who better than God to teach what God commands?).

This was a waste of time. Little relevance to the debate at hand, although it all seems childish.