Who won the second Presidential debate?

[LadiesMan217]

Who do you think won the Presidential debate?

[thebuescherman]

I'm going with undecided since I really think it was an exact 50/50. When the closing remarks were done with.... I thought that both spewed the same amount of good ideas, bad ideas, and complete bullshit.

[Okieslims]

I should have went undecided as well..innitially Im going with Obama..but I'll take a look at factcheck before I really decide... it was close though.

[Okieslims]

Early posts from factcheck.org

Pakistan Attack
McCain charged that Obama has said he would “attack Pakistan.” What he really said, on Aug. 1, 2007, was: “It was a terrible mistake to fail to act when we had a chance to take out an al Qaeda leadership meeting in 2005. If we have actionable intelligence about high-value terrorist targets and President Musharraf won’t act, we will.”
As we noted in February, when Sen. Hillary Clinton criticized Obama for his remarks, that’s pretty much what the U.S. had just done. On Feb. 1, several news organizations reported that official sources said that a CIA airstrike in Pakistan had killed Abu Laith al-Libi, once No. 4 on the “most wanted” list of a military anti-terrorism task force. The strike was by a remote-controlled Predator drone using missiles.






Obama Still Wrong About $79 Billion Figure

Again tonight Obama said that the U.S. was paying too much for the war in Iraq, while the Iraqis have a “$79 billion surplus.”
As we’ve pointed out when Obama said it on the campaign trail, when he it at the last debate, and even when Biden the figure in the vice presidential debate, that number is wrong. The Iraqis actually “have” $29.4 billion in the bank. The Government Accountability Office in August that Iraq’s 2008 budget surplus could range anywhere from $38.2 billion to $50.3 billion, depending on oil revenue, price and volume. Then, in early August, the Iraqi legislature passed a $21 billion supplemental spending bill, which was omitted from the GAO’s surplus tally since it was still under consideration. The supplemental will be completely funded by this year’s surplus, and that guarantees that the Iraqi’s will not have $79 billion in the bank. They could have up to $58 billion




The Return of the Oil Slick

McCain accused Obama of voting for a “Bush and Cheney” energy bill that gave away billions to oil companies. McCain is referring to the Energy Policy Act of 2005, which Obama did in fact vote for. Sen. Clinton raised this same charge against Obama during the Democratic primaries. It was misleading then and it’s equally misleading now.
In fact, according to a Congressional Research Service report, more tax breaks were taken away from oil companies than were given. Overall, the Act resulted in a small net tax increase on the oil industry:
Congressional Research Service: The Energy Policy Act of 2005 (EPACT05, P.L. 109-58) included several oil and gas tax incentives, providing about $2.6 billion of tax cuts for the oil and gas industry. In addition, EPACT05 provided for $2.9 billion of tax increases on the oil and gas industry, for a net tax increase on the industry of nearly $300 million over 11 years.
The bill did contain $14.3 billion in , but most of those went to electric utilities, and nuclear, and also to alternative fuels research and subsidies for energy-efficient cars, homes and buildings - not to the oil industry.






blah..too many html disaters to post the rest..here's the link The FactCheck Wire

[ghost_stalker]

I missed it =(, anyone got a link where i can watch or download the whole thing?

[ShadowFox]

According to CNN polls, Obama:
Obama picks up second debate win, poll says - CNN.com

NASHVILLE, Tennessee (CNN) -- A national poll of debate watchers suggests that Sen. Barack Obama won the second presidential debate. Fifty-four percent of those questioned in a CNN/Opinion Research Corp. survey conducted after the debate ended said that Obama did the best job in the debate, with 30 percent saying Sen. John McCain performed better. According to the poll, 64 percent had a favorable opinion of Obama after the debate, up four points from before the event. Fifty-one percent of those polled had a favorable opinion of McCain after the debate unchanged from before its start. A majority said Obama seemed to be the stronger leader during the debate, 54 percent to 43 percent, and by a more than two to one margin -- 65 percent to 28 percent -- viewers thought Obama was more likable during the debate. CNN polling director Keating Holland said Obama made some gains on the leadership issue even before the debate. "McCain's advantage on leadership shrunk from 19 points in September to just five points this weekend," Holland said. "If Obama can use this debate to convince Americans that he is a stronger leader than McCain, he may be difficult to defeat." A majority of debate watchers polled thought Obama was more intelligent, by a 57 percent to 25 percent margin over McCain. Debate watchers also thought Obama more clearly expressed his views by a two to one margin, 60 percent to 30 percent. Debate watchers questioned thought McCain, rather than Obama, spent more time attacking his opponent, with 63 percent saying McCain went more on the attack, as opposed to just 17 percent saying Obama. Half of those polled said Obama answered questions more directly, 13 points ahead of McCain, and by a 14-point margin, debate watchers thought Obama seemed to care more about the problems of audience members who asked questions.

Please read the entire article.

Interesting isn't it.

[Okieslims]

Factcheck.org summary

McCain and Obama debated for the second time, in Nashville. We noted some misleading statements and mangled facts:

McCain proposed to write down the amount owed by over-mortgaged homeowners and claimed the idea as his own: “It’s my proposal, it's not Sen. Obama's proposal, it's not President Bush's proposal.” But the idea isn’t new. Obama had endorsed something similar two weeks earlier, and authority for the treasury secretary to grant such relief was included in the recently passed $700 billion financial rescue package.
Both candidates oversimplified the causes of the financial crisis. McCain blamed it on Democrats who resisted tighter regulation of federal mortgage agencies. Obama blamed it on financial deregulation backed by Republicans. We find both are right, with plenty of blame left over for others, from home buyers to the chairman of the Federal Reserve.
Obama said his health care plan would lower insurance premiums by up to $2,500 a year. Experts we’ve consulted see little evidence such savings would materialize.
McCain misstated his own health care plan, saying he’d give a $5,000 tax credit to “every American” His plan actually would provide only $2,500 per individual, or $5,000 for couples and families. He also misstated Obama’s health care plan, claiming it would levy fines on “small businesses” that fail to provide health insurance. Actually, Obama’s plan exempts “small businesses.”
McCain lamented that the U.S. was forced to “withdraw in humiliation” from Somalia in 1994, but he failed to note that he once proposed to cut off funding for troops to force a faster withdrawal.
Obama said, “I favor nuclear power.” That’s a stronger statement than we've heard him make before. As recently as last December, he said, “I am not a nuclear energy proponent.”
McCain claimed “1.3 million people in America make their living off eBay.” Actually, only 724,000 persons in the U.S. have income from eBay, and only some of them rely on it as their primary source.
For full details, and additional quibbles, please read our Analysis section.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

In my opinion, McCain's biggest moment in the debate was when he brought up nuclear energy as a safe option and pointed out that most of the navy ships he has been on are nuclear powered. I thought that was a knockout blow. If nuclear energy can be harnessed safely, there is no reason we shouldn't be utilizing it and McCain made it seem very safe with that statement.

Obama's biggest moment was when he boldly stated that "I believe healthcare is a RIGHT".. that resonated with me because I have worked at hospitals and seen the factory in motion. Healthcare should be a right and should not be a business on par with mcdonalds.. simply trying to pull in the most money.

[Rainbow]

Quote by: LadiesMan217 Who do you think won the Presidential debate?

Obama : 65
McCain : 35
"That one" (read : Obama) presented some close-ups to his solutions.
McCain failed to deliver that.

[ShadowFox]

Quote by: Okieslims In my opinion, McCain's biggest moment in the debate was when he brought up nuclear energy as a safe option and pointed out that most of the navy ships he has been on are nuclear powered. I thought that was a knockout blow. If nuclear energy can be harnessed safely, there is no reason we shouldn't be utilizing it and McCain made it seem very safe with that statement.

Still, there are great risks of nuclear power. Anyone remember Chernobyl or Three-mile island? I guess it should be used, but it shouldn't be the most predominant form of energy we use.

[shawmutt]

Still, there are great risks of nuclear power. Anyone remember Chernobyl or Three-mile island?

Nuclear power has been advancing in leaps and bounds since the construction of those two power plants, making it much safer and more efficient.

As far as the debates, they both held their own I think. Of course I thought Obama "won", but I'm rooting for the guy.

[ShadowFox]

Quote by: shawmutt Nuclear power has been advancing in leaps and bounds since the construction of those two power plants, making it much safer and more efficient.

Still, i'd prefer nuclear not be the most predominant source of energy in this country.

[thebuescherman]

As I understand it, the Navy has been powering our submarines and aircraft carriers with nuclear power for decades. They've been pretty successful at it.

[pietrazek]

Quote by: ShadowFox Still, there are great risks of nuclear power. Anyone remember Chernobyl or Three-mile island? I guess it should be used, but it shouldn't be the most predominant form of energy we use.

First off Chernobyl happened in the soviet union and the Three-mile island incident accounted for 0 deaths. Nuclear power is safer for the enviornmnt and power plats create more jobs. Nuclear power is a good idea The US has a high standard of safety. A lot has changed since 1979 (Three-mile island) What type of energy sorce do ou propse be the most predominaint?

[ShadowFox]

Actually, we're getting off topic, i'll start up a new thread.

[xyzer]

I thought the latest debate was a farce. Obama stridently vocalizing his mantras and scripted nonsense designed by his staff to show us he knows whats needed. Trouble is that almost 50% of the 95% he said wont have tax hikes, aren't paying taxes to start with? Does it make sense to say that those who don't pay taxes wont have their taxes increased?
Besides that he forgets to mention that the Bush tax cuts expire in 2010 and that is in effect a tax hike.
Another thing that frosts my cojones is this crap about the Iraqi War costing us so much...Are we to ignore the fact that the Party that Obama represents has so screwed up the economy that its costing us taxpayers some trillion dollars right off the bat? 70Billion $ ayear is chump change. There is no hiding it, a Democrat controlled and influenced Congress acted to set up Fannie and Freddie and protected them by actively blocking reform efforts...Democrats Obama , Frank, and Dodd were on the take ...Democrats like Clinton pushed to relax rules and allow everybody(even illegal aliens) to get loans for housing that they couldn't pay!

As to McCain he has about as much emotion as a fish..Why doesn't he tell us what the hell he is going to do to clean up the Democratic mess and catch and punish the criminals that caused the problem?

There isn't an honest one among the two.

[Okieslims]

Quote by: xyzer I thought the latest debate was a farce. Obama stridently vocalizing his mantras and scripted nonsense designed by his staff to show us he knows whats needed. Trouble is that almost 50% of the 95% he said wont have tax hikes, aren't paying taxes to start with? Does it make sense to say that those who don't pay taxes wont have their taxes increased? Besides that he forgets to mention that the Bush tax cuts expire in 2010 and that is in effect a tax hike. Another thing that frosts my cojones is this crap about the Iraqi War costing us so much...Are we to ignore the fact that the Party that Obama represents has so screwed up the economy that its costing us taxpayers some trillion dollars right off the bat? 70Billion $ ayear is chump change. There is no hiding it, a Democrat controlled and influenced Congress acted to set up Fannie and Freddie and protected them by actively blocking reform efforts...Democrats Obama , Frank, and Dodd were on the take ...Democrats like Clinton pushed to relax rules and allow everybody(even illegal aliens) to get loans for housing that they couldn't pay! As to McCain he has about as much emotion as a fish..Why doesn't he tell us what the hell he is going to do to clean up the Democratic mess and catch and punish the criminals that caused the problem? There isn't an honest one among the two.

Yeah because republicans had nothing to do with the economic collapse.. You want to know what cause the collapse... GREEDY AMERICANS. Sure, dems may have opened a door that made it possible, and repubs may have allow that door to stand ajar for 8 years, but it all comes down to greedy bankers and greedy first time home buyers that know they are in over their head.. and the banker knows too, but once he gets the loan done, it doesn't matter to him because he gets his cut whether they pay or not.

[thebuescherman]

Quote by: Okieslims Yeah because republicans had nothing to do with the economic collapse.. You want to know what cause the collapse... GREEDY AMERICANS. Sure, dems may have opened a door that made it possible, and repubs may have allow that door to stand ajar for 8 years, but it all comes down to greedy bankers and greedy first time home buyers that know they are in over their head.. and the banker knows too, but once he gets the loan done, it doesn't matter to him because he gets his cut whether they pay or not.

That is an excellent summary of the situation I think. Pointing the finger in any lone direction isn't going to solve anything. Democrat/Republican policies set the stage, but we acted it out. All these loans that people couldn't pay off, why did people accept them? Lack of education, perhaps?

[Rainbow]

Quote by: xyzer I thought the latest debate was a farce. Obama stridently vocalizing his mantras and scripted nonsense designed by his staff to show us he knows whats needed. Trouble is that almost 50% of the 95% he said wont have tax hikes, aren't paying taxes to start with? Does it make sense to say that those who don't pay taxes wont have their taxes increased? Besides that he forgets to mention that the Bush tax cuts expire in 2010 and that is in effect a tax hike. Another thing that frosts my cojones is this crap about the Iraqi War costing us so much...Are we to ignore the fact that the Party that Obama represents has so screwed up the economy that its costing us taxpayers some trillion dollars right off the bat? 70Billion $ ayear is chump change. There is no hiding it, a Democrat controlled and influenced Congress acted to set up Fannie and Freddie and protected them by actively blocking reform efforts...Democrats Obama , Frank, and Dodd were on the take ...Democrats like Clinton pushed to relax rules and allow everybody(even illegal aliens) to get loans for housing that they couldn't pay! As to McCain he has about as much emotion as a fish..Why doesn't he tell us what the hell he is going to do to clean up the Democratic mess and catch and punish the criminals that caused the problem? There isn't an honest one among the two.

The whole mess with the U.S. national debts, is a collective job of few guys, starting from R. Reagan - with acceptable tolerance, through B. Clinton - still acceptable, to a total mess done by G. Bush - completely insane.
G. Bush has brought all that mess to markets all over the world.
How ? He lowered the bar to level of "zero", with concern to credits and real estate policies, respectively. Generally, guys have been making transactions all over the world, transferring valueless papers (!!!)
Yet another factor is creditors policies. That is a completely bizarre that No (political, financial, etc.) body has verified the Real transactions' value, Ever (!!!)
(They are crying about regulations to be implemented today, though.
It is better late than never.)

Example :
Creditor #1.
Creaditor #1 assumes that is going to make $5 billion.
Creditor #1 makes transactions with Others using the same $5 billion as if it has already made. The true is : Creditor #1 does Not have that money in reality (!!!). Others, do the same and/or something similar, creating a total chaos on markets all over the globe.
That is a complete f...
Now, what we see on markets, those overvalued papers need to be Re-valued (once again) to their Real form(s) and/or digits.

[grandpa]

Quote by: Rainbow The whole mess with the U.S. national debts, is a collective job of few guys, starting from R. Reagan - with acceptable tolerance, through B. Clinton - still acceptable, to a total mess done by G. Bush - completely insane. G. Bush has brought all that mess to markets all over the world.

Then it's not only the Bush camp beleaguered by scandal. Not one of those listed has been an insignificant and irrelevant figure, which is ironically why we're not going to win over the world.

Grandpa h.

[Rainbow]

Shit happens, grandpa :-)