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Vernon · Jun 9, 2005, 04:36 pm

A RESPONSE TO JAMES' POST OF 6 JUNE 05 (No 17)

James has told us in his post that "the Jewish faith will survive. It's predicted in Revelations. There will be at least 144,000 Jews left in the tribulation".

This is pretty technical stuff: "the tribulation" and "144,000"!

However, since he has brouight Revelation into this thread, it seems reasonable to me to say something about his view, based on details in this particular book of the New Testament.

Firstly, Revelation is about and for Christians, and not about and for Jews.

Revelation is a book of the New Testament, which came into being after Christ had been crucified and raised from the dead, and after the destruction of the Jewish temple and the major dispersion of the Jews from Palestine in 70AD.

Judaism is, quite rightly, not interested in the New Testament since Judaism belongs to the Old Covenant, the Old Testament. It is, therefore, unlikely that James's reference to "144,000 Jews" in Revelation is correct, because Revelation is a book of the New Covenant, the New Testament.

Secondly, the person speaking to John, who in turn wrote Revelation down, is generally accepted as being Christ, whom Judaism does not recognise as being divine or the Messiah.

What Christ says to two of the seven churches in Revelation further supports the view that Revelation was written for Christians and not for Jews. Christ says, "These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and who came to life again {1}. I know the slander of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan {2}. These are the words of him who is holy and true {3}. I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars - I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you" {4}. These are all direct quotes from the New International Version of the Bible.

Thirdly, Revelation talks about how the Christian faith, as opposed to Judaism, began.

There is a problem in heaven in that there is a tightly sealed up scroll to be opened, but no one can be found to open it. Then the Lamb of God is seen opening the seals of the scroll. "You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals because you were killed and, with your blood you purchased men and women for God from every tribe and language and people and nation" {5}.

Revelation is about the Christian faith because the blood of its Founder purchases people, not just those who have come from Judaism, but also from every tribe and language and people and nation.

And so, when we come to the "144,000" people, we must be very careful about assuming automatically that they are Jewish people, even though they are described as coming from every tribe of Israel {6}.

After listing these 12 tribes and the "144,000" people sealed, Revelation goes on immediately to say, "After this, I, John, looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb {6}. This is not about Jews only, but about Jews and all the other peoples in the world.

So, I suggest that the "144,000" are not Jews but are Christians, though some are undoubtedly converted from Judaism.

Consequently, there does not seem to be much support for James' assertion that "the Jewish faith will continue because there will be at least 144,000 Jews left in the tribulation".

Now, James might be reasonably say that if the "144,000" people, who are from all the tribes of Israel, are, in fact, Christians, then why does Revelation not call them Christians? Why call them "tribes of Israel"?

Part of the answer is that Revelation is full of descriptions, which do not actually mean what they appear to mean on the surface. What I am saying is that there are many, many symbols, each of which represents something else.

But this is not a sufficient answer because James will rightly come back and say, "OK, clever clogs, what is the underlying meaning of 'tribes of Israel'?"

Well! Let's have a go!

The tribes of Israel are the sons of Israel because each son started a tribe. The sons are sons of Israel, whose other name was Jacob.

Jacob was born because of genetic material fertilizing a woman's egg. Of course! However, the genetic material in the sperm, which brought Jacob, Israel, into being, came from genetic material which had been in the body of Abraham.

Abraham! Jacob came from Abraham; the twelve sons of Israel came from Abraham; the tribes of Israel came from Abraham.

In the New Testament, Abraham is described as "the father of all who believe" {7}. Those, who believe, are those who have put their faith in Christ as their Messiah, their Lord and their Saviour. They are Christians. So Abraham is the father of Christians.

Christians are described as being "Abraham's offspring, those who are of the faith of Abraham" {8}. Abraham is told by God, "I have made you father of many nations" {9}.

And so, "Abraham is our father in the sight of God, in whom he put his faith" {9}. "Abraham believed and so he became the father of many nations" {10}.

So, those who have faith in Christ are descendants of Abraham, his offspring. How? By what mechanism?

I suggest that the genetic material, which makes up the being of the Christian, the person who has faith in Christ, has come from genetic material which was, at one time, within Abraham's body. His genetic material passed through his grandson, Israel, into the tribes of Israel, which have been dispersed throughout all the nations of the world over the centuries.

In this way, the "144,000 from all the tribes of Israel" {6} can be understood as being Christians and not Jews or Israelites.

It is as if a gene with Abraham written on it has left Abraham's body, and multiplied itself millions of times to find its way into the bodies of all Christians in the course of time.

Because Abraham himself had faith in the God and Father of Jesus Christ, so he is the father of all others who have faith in the same God and Father of Jesus Christ.

So, the symbolic number of "144,000" is not referring to Jews. And "144,000" does not indicate that the "Jewish faith will survive".

1 Revelation 2:8
2 Revelation 2:9
3 Revelation 3:7
4 Revelation 3:9
5 Revelation 5:9
6 Revelation 7:4-8
7 Romans 4:11
8 Romans 4:16
9 Romans 4:17
10 Romans 4:18

Jun 9, 2005, 04:36 pm	#19 (permalink) (top)
Vernon Sedimentary Rock Posts: 9	A RESPONSE TO JAMES' POST OF 6 JUNE 05 (No 17) James has told us in his post that "the Jewish faith will survive. It's predicted in Revelations. There will be at least 144,000 Jews left in the tribulation". This is pretty technical stuff: "the tribulation" and "144,000"! However, since he has brouight Revelation into this thread, it seems reasonable to me to say something about his view, based on details in this particular book of the New Testament. *Firstly, Revelation is about and for* Christians, and not about and for Jews. Revelation is a book of the New Testament, which came into being after Christ had been crucified and raised from the dead, and after the destruction of the Jewish temple and the major dispersion of the Jews from Palestine in 70AD. Judaism is, quite rightly, not interested in the New Testament since Judaism belongs to the Old Covenant, the Old Testament. It is, therefore, unlikely that James's reference to "144,000 *Jews" in Revelation is correct, because Revelation is a book of the New* Covenant, the New Testament. Secondly, the person speaking to John, who in turn wrote Revelation down, is generally accepted as being Christ, whom Judaism does not recognise as being divine or the Messiah. What Christ says to two of the seven churches in Revelation further supports the view that Revelation was written for Christians and not for Jews. Christ says, "These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and who came to life again {1}. I know the slander of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan {2}. These are the words of him who is holy and true {3}. I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars - I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you" {4}. These are all direct quotes from the New International Version of the Bible. Thirdly, Revelation talks about how the Christian faith, as opposed to Judaism, began. There is a problem in heaven in that there is a tightly sealed up scroll to be opened, but no one can be found to open it. Then the Lamb of God is seen opening the seals of the scroll. "You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals because you were killed and, with your blood you purchased men and women for God from every tribe and language and people and nation" {5}. Revelation is about the Christian faith because the blood of its Founder purchases people, not just those who have come from Judaism, but also from *every* tribe and language and people and nation. And so, when we come to the "144,000" people, we must be very careful about assuming automatically that they are Jewish people, even though they are described as coming from every tribe of Israel {6}. After listing these 12 tribes and the "144,000" people sealed, Revelation goes on immediately to say, "After this, I, John, looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every* nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb* {6}. This is not about Jews only, but about Jews *and* all the other peoples in the world. So, I suggest that the "144,000" are not Jews but are Christians, though some are undoubtedly converted from Judaism. Consequently, there does not seem to be much support for James' assertion that "the Jewish faith will continue because there will be at least 144,000 Jews left in the tribulation". Now, James might be reasonably say that if the "144,000" people, who are from all the tribes of Israel, are, in fact, Christians, then why does Revelation not call them Christians? Why call them "tribes of Israel"? Part of the answer is that Revelation is full of descriptions, which do not actually mean what they appear to mean on the surface. What I am saying is that there are many, many symbols, each of which represents something else. But this is not a sufficient answer because James will rightly come back and say, "OK, clever clogs, what is the underlying meaning of 'tribes of Israel'?" Well! Let's have a go! The tribes of Israel are the sons of Israel because each son started a tribe. The sons are sons of Israel, whose other name was Jacob. Jacob was born because of genetic material fertilizing a woman's egg. Of course! However, the genetic material in the sperm, which brought Jacob, Israel, into being, came from genetic material which had been in the body of Abraham. Abraham! Jacob came from Abraham; the twelve sons of Israel came from Abraham; the tribes of Israel came from Abraham. In the New Testament, Abraham is described as "the father* of all who believe" {7}. Those, who believe, are those who have put their faith in Christ as their Messiah, their Lord and their Saviour. They are Christians. So Abraham is the father of Christians. Christians are described as being "Abraham's offspring, those who are of the faith of Abraham" {8}. Abraham is told by God, "I have made you father of many nations" {9}. And so, "Abraham is our father* in the sight of God, in whom he put his faith" {9}. "Abraham believed and so he became the father* of many nations" {10}. So, those who have faith in Christ are descendants of Abraham, his offspring. How? By what mechanism? I suggest that the genetic material, which makes up the being of the Christian, the person who has faith* in Christ, has come from genetic material which was, at one time, within Abraham's body. His genetic material passed through his grandson, Israel, into the tribes of Israel, which have been dispersed throughout all the nations of the world over the centuries. In this way, the "144,000 from all the tribes of Israel" {6} can be understood as being Christians and not Jews or Israelites. It is as if a gene with Abraham written on it has left Abraham's body, and multiplied itself millions of times to find its way into the bodies of all Christians in the course of time. Because Abraham himself had faith in the God and Father of Jesus Christ, so he is the father of all others who have faith in the same God and Father of Jesus Christ. So, the symbolic number of "144,000" is not referring to Jews. And "144,000" does not indicate that the "Jewish faith will survive". 1 Revelation 2:8 2 Revelation 2:9 3 Revelation 3:7 4 Revelation 3:9 5 Revelation 5:9 6 Revelation 7:4-8 7 Romans 4:11 8 Romans 4:16 9 Romans 4:17 10 Romans 4:18