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NoeticPenguin · Feb 17, 2004, 10:23 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (orgaelin,)
There's loads of little quotes, like the one where Jesus says that you're not going to Heaven unless you hate you mother, father, brothers, sisters, etc.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Actually, the verse is dealing with being a disciple of Jesus, not "going to heaven". Secondly your taking a bit out of context, I sugest you re-read the entire chapter. The section you quoted is Luke 14:26, and it's discussing the idea of "counting the cost" and knowing that becoming a disciple of Jesus may cost you the love of your family etc. Thirdly the translation is very bad! The Greek word we translate "hate" is actually more like "[hate] in the sense of indifference to or relative disregard for them in comparison with his attitude toward God]" acording to G. Abbott-Smith, in the Manual Greek Lexicon.

Context is everything, and part of that context is the languages it was a) written in and b) translated into.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by

Christians believe that the bible is the inspired word of God and contains no mistakes or innacuracies, and so by their own beliefs they have to accept that 99% of them ARE going to Hell! Just because they don't hate their families! <hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Actually, thats a rather rude and off base comment, somewhat akin to me saying that all blond haired people are murders. Christians do not, by definition believe that the Bible contains no mistakes ore inaccuracies. I'll say it again, Christians do not by definition, believe that the Bible contains no mistakes or inaccuracies.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by

The big book even tells them to give up their wordly goods (even sell their clothes for swords if they have to) and that if they don't, a camel is more likely to fit through they eye of a needle than they are to fit into Heaven!<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Actually, it says that "it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to go into the kingdom of heaven." This of course has nothing to do with selling your clothes for swords, (interesting due to the clear rejection of violence that Jesus displays throughout the gospels) but it does say something about pride and humility and the effect that $ has on our pride. Few people are rich, and humble enough to become disciples. (thankfully there is grace!)

To put it mildly your exegesis shows a marked lack of knowledge of the basic naratives of the Bible, and it's overarching moral and ethical teachings; not to mention a disturbing lack of understanding of the role of faith in the lives of believers. Furthermore your prooftexting shows a marked lack of academic and logical rigor! If you wish to seriously engage belivers in conversation regarding the Bible you must know what it says, not only in prooftexts (as you clearly are attempting) but in the over-arching naratives and meta-naratives that influance and speak from the Bible.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by

Put plainly: the bible says that about ten people on the planet may be good enough to go to Heaven. The rest are going to burn... not just for a while, but for forever, in lakes of fire and brimstone. What a nice God he is to do this to his children!
<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

This more than any other comment you have made shows your lack of understanding. Christianity is a faith based on the ideas of grace, forgiveness and love. Not on the concepts of work. One does not have to be "good enough" to go to heaven, one only has to believe and confess the name of the Lord.
The mystery of our faith is that Christ died for our Sins, that he rose again and that he will come again! Not in the works we do or do not do in some vain attempt to "earn heaven"

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by

If there is a God, he/it has nothing to do with the evil egotistical genocidal maniac in the bible.

I had roughly this conversation with the JW I mentioned. She didn't much approve. <hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Heards law: One cannot judge the existance of God based upon the actions ascribed to him. [1]

In other words you cannot look at your paltry understanding of the Bible, and decide that there is no God or that God is evil because the actions you read ascribed to him are actions you feel to be evil. Instead you *must* accept on faith the idea that God does exist, and then simply try to understand what those actions mean in the context of other things that are going on in the narrative.

[1]: Named for Dr. Heard, of Pepperdine University.

Feb 17, 2004, 10:23 am	#17 (permalink) (top)
NoeticPenguin Sedimentary Rock Posts: 12	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (orgaelin,) There's loads of little quotes, like the one where Jesus says that you're not going to Heaven unless you hate you mother, father, brothers, sisters, etc.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Actually, the verse is dealing with being a disciple of Jesus, not "going to heaven". Secondly your taking a bit out of context, I sugest you re-read the entire chapter. The section you quoted is Luke 14:26, and it's discussing the idea of "counting the cost" and knowing that becoming a disciple of Jesus may cost you the love of your family etc. Thirdly the translation is very bad! The Greek word we translate "hate" is actually more like "[hate] in the sense of indifference to or relative disregard for them in comparison with his attitude toward God]" acording to G. Abbott-Smith, in the Manual Greek Lexicon. Context is everything, and part of that context is the languages it was a) written in and b) translated into. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by Christians believe that the bible is the inspired word of God and contains no mistakes or innacuracies, and so by their own beliefs they have to accept that 99% of them ARE going to Hell! Just because they don't hate their families! <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Actually, thats a rather rude and off base comment, somewhat akin to me saying that all blond haired people are murders. Christians do not, by definition believe that the Bible contains no mistakes ore inaccuracies. I'll say it again, Christians do not by definition, believe that the Bible contains no mistakes or inaccuracies. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by The big book even tells them to give up their wordly goods (even sell their clothes for swords if they have to) and that if they don't, a camel is more likely to fit through they eye of a needle than they are to fit into Heaven!<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Actually, it says that "it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to go into the kingdom of heaven." This of course has nothing to do with selling your clothes for swords, (interesting due to the clear rejection of violence that Jesus displays throughout the gospels) but it does say something about pride and humility and the effect that $ has on our pride. Few people are rich, and humble enough to become disciples. (thankfully there is grace!) To put it mildly your exegesis shows a marked lack of knowledge of the basic naratives of the Bible, and it's overarching moral and ethical teachings; not to mention a disturbing lack of understanding of the role of faith in the lives of believers. Furthermore your prooftexting shows a marked lack of academic and logical rigor! If you wish to seriously engage belivers in conversation regarding the Bible you must know what it says, not only in prooftexts (as you clearly are attempting) but in the over-arching naratives and meta-naratives that influance and speak from the Bible. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by Put plainly: the bible says that about ten people on the planet may be good enough to go to Heaven. The rest are going to burn... not just for a while, but for forever, in lakes of fire and brimstone. What a nice God he is to do this to his children! <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> This more than any other comment you have made shows your lack of understanding. Christianity is a faith based on the ideas of grace, forgiveness and love. Not on the concepts of work. One does not have to be "good enough" to go to heaven, one only has to believe and confess the name of the Lord. The mystery of our faith is that Christ died for our Sins, that he rose again and that he will come again! Not in the works we do or do not do in some vain attempt to "earn heaven" </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by If there is a God, he/it has nothing to do with the evil egotistical genocidal maniac in the bible. I had roughly this conversation with the JW I mentioned. She didn't much approve. <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Heards law: One cannot judge the existance of God based upon the actions ascribed to him. [1] In other words you cannot look at your paltry understanding of the Bible, and decide that there is no God or that God is evil because the actions you read ascribed to him are actions you feel to be evil. Instead you must accept on faith the idea that God does exist, and then simply try to understand what those actions mean in the context of other things that are going on in the narrative. [1]: Named for Dr. Heard, of Pepperdine University. "What He really hates is the crap that gets carried out in his name. Wars. Bigotry. Televangelism." --Rufus the 13th Apostle.