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Leopard · Feb 17, 2004, 01:00 am

okie dokie, I think I see some way to whittle this down a bit...
lets take your questions first (yes, Lightbearer, I understand the fallacies contained within, but I think I can read the intent of his words and perhaps move on in discourse rather than repeatedly sticking my finger in his eye (although you are quite 'correct' in your posts) pointing out any swaying from the purely logical path...)

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
1. If you would abolish government schools what would you see in its place. Not suggesting a system just tell me what you would seee as education for our children? Please state these in positives without bashing any other method.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
First, please understand that I take the view that 'simply living' is actually an education: we learn a bit everyday about how to relate to others, what constitutes reality and fantasy, we learn from mistakes made and correct assumptions undertaken... life IS an education and I think that is pretty undeniable. What I will 'infer' here is that you mean 'formal' education. Since 'formal' education is a relatively new phenonemon<sp?> and it is not necessary in order to insure ones survival, then it HAS to be an optional endeavor. The degree and pattern of education each person desires, or desires for their children is exceedingly subjective and personal and a private affair. It infringes on no right of mine if my neighbor sees fit to educate their child in math, or not, in english, or not, in religion, or not. I am not advocatng some kind of romantic return to an uneducated agrarian<again..sp?> rural culture, BUT, if people CHOOSE to do so for themselves and their families, so be it - I only wish to give them back their freedom to make the choice. So, in response to your question 'what would you see as education for our children?', I say that it is simply not my place to dictate to you or others how to educate YOUR children, my children I will ensure that they can properly communicate with others through oral and written language, understand economics enough so they can maintain a household budget and understand a bit of the world around them, have at least a minimal of mathematics skills to succeed in this world of computers and numbers. these would be my minimums... my goals would be to insure that my child has a MUCH better than average chance when competing with others for a particular job, that he/she has mutliple skills and talents to draw from and to fall back on in uncertain times, and has available to them the full range of career choices that our world has to offer. I do not think that these 'goals' are necessarily 'good' or 'moral' for anyone else but myself and my children. I do think that the road to happiness can be achieved in poverty as well as in 'success' - and the definition of 'happiness' is up to each person to decide for themselves - I do not think that even with my own constant attention and perhaps badgering I could instill my own definition of 'happiness' upon my own child - that is soley reserved for their mind to discover.
(and you thought that YOU were wordy! LOL 0 ya ain't seen nuttin' yet, honey!)

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
2. How abruptly would you make the change? Would you have a transition plan or would you just close the schools and see what happened? In this instance could you please address the culture shock. Even though home schooling had a millinia of success it was not dropped all at once on a culture who has been dependent on an alternative for generations.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
Reality is the 'current' system of affairs. We currently have many people who simply do not think very well for themselves, are not interested or use to the idea of 'Freedom of Choice' (except when it comes to the amount of channels they have access to on the TV - even if all the channels propogate only monster truck events, pseudo-wrestling entertainment, and faux-reality shows - actualy, to most, the more of these 'choices' the better! <sigh>). So, NO, I do not advocate the complete destruction of our current system in a day - that would lead to massive pain and havoc, much akin to throwing a caveman into the streets of New York, insanity would result. The first step would be simply to allow the private sector to exist on its own with no regulation or mandates. this is a MAJOR step for some (the homeschooling crowd) but would not, at first, 'endanger' the existing public institutions. The effect of this would allow truly private institutions to come into existance and begin to offer alternatives to public education. The next step would be to reconstruct the tax system so that only those who use the public education system are forced to pay its costs - more of a 'user fee' than a tax at this point. This is necessary to chip away that final chain that holds down the private industry - the consumer is forced to pay for the public method even when they do not use its services. A true competition between, not only various private education methods, but also with the unsubsidized public education methods would finally take place which would allow parents to determine for themselves which method(s) truly are the 'right' methods for their children. The last and final nail would be to end Compulsary Education. The effect of this would be to allow even broader forms of education AND/OR work to compete with all the other available services.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
3. Since we all know this is not going to happen this year why are you so opposed to my suggestion of respect, or at least courtesy, for your fellow citizens who are working with what we have?<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
There are very organized forces on both sides of this issue, and changes will come about in the near future - for entertainment value to you, and perhaps a bit of 'education' also: keep an eye on New Hampshire and the Free State Project to see what a consolidated effort will bring to the old guard in public education (The Freestate Project). What I do respect of my fellow citizens is that I believe they do have a sincere concern for children, as do I. What I do NOT respect is their desire to se the awesome force of government to blungeon me with THEIR beliefs over my own - democracy really is tyranny by majority and what we have is so far from 'democratic or republic' that it is most honest to describe it as 'rule by the most influential' (be that with money (mostly) through lobbies and highly organized special interests - pardon my divergent rant there...).

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
4. Remembering that I do NOT think that demoralization is a complete REASON for anything, do you truly not beleive demoralization can affect performance? If you believe it can It just seems like a simple, costless, very easy way to help just a little. If not.. why not?<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
Yes, in this I agree with you - it is very sad for those who truly wish to benefit 'the children' to not only be put into a system where they end up being babysitters and having a cadre of parents who seemingly are totally self-absorbed and uncaring for their own children, but then to be demonize and thrown into the mix when people start attacking 'the system'. Please note that the REASON for the attacks on teachers and their 'performance' is not within the teachers themselves, but simply because the government has dictated to the people how they should live their lives - the teachers have been caught in the resultant crossfire and are unfortunately lumped in with 'the problem'. but also note that when the 'institution' is attacked, teachers DO leap to its defense which means those 'get what they deserve' for defending same sad institution... there are those who bring it down upon themselves and should then be willing to 'take the heat' and stop whining. Please, I did not say 'all teachers', and I do recognize that there are those who haphazardly attack teachers who are not defending the institution...

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
Thanks for your time. <hr size="1" /></blockquote>
no sir... THANK YOU!

yours in liberty,
michael

Feb 17, 2004, 01:00 am	#55 (permalink) (top)
Leopard Propertarian Posts: 568	okie dokie, I think I see some way to whittle this down a bit... lets take your questions first (yes, Lightbearer, I understand the fallacies contained within, but I think I can read the intent of his words and perhaps move on in discourse rather than repeatedly sticking my finger in his eye (although you are quite 'correct' in your posts) pointing out any swaying from the purely logical path...) </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by 1. If you would abolish government schools what would you see in its place. Not suggesting a system just tell me what you would seee as education for our children? Please state these in positives without bashing any other method.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> First, please understand that I take the view that 'simply living' is actually an education: we learn a bit everyday about how to relate to others, what constitutes reality and fantasy, we learn from mistakes made and correct assumptions undertaken... life IS an education and I think that is pretty undeniable. What I will 'infer' here is that you mean 'formal' education. Since 'formal' education is a relatively new phenonemon<sp?> and it is not necessary in order to insure ones survival, then it HAS to be an optional endeavor. The degree and pattern of education each person desires, or desires for their children is exceedingly subjective and personal and a private affair. It infringes on no right of mine if my neighbor sees fit to educate their child in math, or not, in english, or not, in religion, or not. I am not advocatng some kind of romantic return to an uneducated agrarian<again..sp?> rural culture, BUT, if people CHOOSE to do so for themselves and their families, so be it - I only wish to give them back their freedom to make the choice. So, in response to your question 'what would you see as education for our children?', I say that it is simply not my place to dictate to you or others how to educate YOUR children, my children I will ensure that they can properly communicate with others through oral and written language, understand economics enough so they can maintain a household budget and understand a bit of the world around them, have at least a minimal of mathematics skills to succeed in this world of computers and numbers. these would be my minimums... my goals would be to insure that my child has a MUCH better than average chance when competing with others for a particular job, that he/she has mutliple skills and talents to draw from and to fall back on in uncertain times, and has available to them the full range of career choices that our world has to offer. I do not think that these 'goals' are necessarily 'good' or 'moral' for anyone else but myself and my children. I do think that the road to happiness can be achieved in poverty as well as in 'success' - and the definition of 'happiness' is up to each person to decide for themselves - I do not think that even with my own constant attention and perhaps badgering I could instill my own definition of 'happiness' upon my own child - that is soley reserved for their mind to discover. (and you thought that YOU were wordy! LOL 0 ya ain't seen nuttin' yet, honey!) </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by 2. How abruptly would you make the change? Would you have a transition plan or would you just close the schools and see what happened? In this instance could you please address the culture shock. Even though home schooling had a millinia of success it was not dropped all at once on a culture who has been dependent on an alternative for generations.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Reality is the 'current' system of affairs. We currently have many people who simply do not think very well for themselves, are not interested or use to the idea of 'Freedom of Choice' (except when it comes to the amount of channels they have access to on the TV - even if all the channels propogate only monster truck events, pseudo-wrestling entertainment, and faux-reality shows - actualy, to most, the more of these 'choices' the better! <sigh>). So, NO, I do not advocate the complete destruction of our current system in a day - that would lead to massive pain and havoc, much akin to throwing a caveman into the streets of New York, insanity would result. The first step would be simply to allow the private sector to exist on its own with no regulation or mandates. this is a MAJOR step for some (the homeschooling crowd) but would not, at first, 'endanger' the existing public institutions. The effect of this would allow truly private institutions to come into existance and begin to offer alternatives to public education. The next step would be to reconstruct the tax system so that only those who use the public education system are forced to pay its costs - more of a 'user fee' than a tax at this point. This is necessary to chip away that final chain that holds down the private industry - the consumer is forced to pay for the public method even when they do not use its services. A true competition between, not only various private education methods, but also with the unsubsidized public education methods would finally take place which would allow parents to determine for themselves which method(s) truly are the 'right' methods for their children. The last and final nail would be to end Compulsary Education. The effect of this would be to allow even broader forms of education AND/OR work to compete with all the other available services. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by 3. Since we all know this is not going to happen this year why are you so opposed to my suggestion of respect, or at least courtesy, for your fellow citizens who are working with what we have?<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> There are very organized forces on both sides of this issue, and changes will come about in the near future - for entertainment value to you, and perhaps a bit of 'education' also: keep an eye on New Hampshire and the Free State Project to see what a consolidated effort will bring to the old guard in public education (The Freestate Project). What I do respect of my fellow citizens is that I believe they do have a sincere concern for children, as do I. What I do NOT respect is their desire to se the awesome force of government to blungeon me with THEIR beliefs over my own - democracy really is tyranny by majority and what we have is so far from 'democratic or republic' that it is most honest to describe it as 'rule by the most influential' (be that with money (mostly) through lobbies and highly organized special interests - pardon my divergent rant there...). </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by 4. Remembering that I do NOT think that demoralization is a complete REASON for anything, do you truly not beleive demoralization can affect performance? If you believe it can It just seems like a simple, costless, very easy way to help just a little. If not.. why not?<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Yes, in this I agree with you - it is very sad for those who truly wish to benefit 'the children' to not only be put into a system where they end up being babysitters and having a cadre of parents who seemingly are totally self-absorbed and uncaring for their own children, but then to be demonize and thrown into the mix when people start attacking 'the system'. Please note that the REASON for the attacks on teachers and their 'performance' is not within the teachers themselves, but simply because the government has dictated to the people how they should live their lives - the teachers have been caught in the resultant crossfire and are unfortunately lumped in with 'the problem'. but also note that when the 'institution' is attacked, teachers DO leap to its defense which means those 'get what they deserve' for defending same sad institution... there are those who bring it down upon themselves and should then be willing to 'take the heat' and stop whining. Please, I did not say 'all teachers', and I do recognize that there are those who haphazardly attack teachers who are not defending the institution... </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by Thanks for your time. <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> no sir... THANK YOU! yours in liberty, michael Take on the responsibility to be free